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Groups > alt.folklore.computers > #233681 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2026-01-27 20:15 +0000 |
| Last post | 2026-04-15 22:10 +0000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 268 — 29 participants |
Back to article view | Back to alt.folklore.computers
Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-27 20:15 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-01-27 15:58 -0500
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix jayjwa <jayjwa@atr2.ath.cx.invalid> - 2026-01-27 21:00 -0500
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-28 03:24 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-01-27 21:41 -0700
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-28 04:45 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-28 05:26 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-01-28 08:00 -0700
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-28 23:47 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-29 00:47 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2026-01-28 12:07 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-01-28 13:37 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-28 15:21 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Adam Sampson <ats@offog.org> - 2026-01-28 19:54 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-28 23:45 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-29 00:56 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-01-28 20:29 -0700
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-29 16:09 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-29 19:32 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-29 20:40 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-28 15:55 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-28 18:31 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-01-28 14:10 -0500
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2026-01-28 16:26 -0500
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-29 00:59 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-28 22:26 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-01-29 06:54 -0500
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-01-29 14:50 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-01-30 13:04 -0800
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-01-31 15:10 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-31 11:59 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-01-31 16:39 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-31 20:56 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-02-02 10:36 -0800
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-01-29 14:39 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-29 16:01 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-01-30 17:19 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-01-28 08:11 -0700
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-01-28 14:15 -0500
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-28 22:25 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-29 00:52 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-28 04:19 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-01-28 06:55 -0500
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-28 12:01 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-28 15:51 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-01-28 16:14 -0800
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-29 06:30 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-01-29 15:34 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-29 19:32 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-01-29 12:49 -0700
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-29 20:01 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-29 22:56 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-30 00:58 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-01-30 23:49 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-31 04:55 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-29 23:48 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-01-30 07:35 -0700
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-01-30 11:29 -0500
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-30 19:18 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-01-30 12:22 -0800
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-30 22:26 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-31 05:04 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-31 04:58 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-01-31 06:59 -0500
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-31 18:10 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-31 19:39 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix jayjwa <jayjwa@atr2.ath.cx.invalid> - 2026-01-30 13:57 -0500
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-30 21:11 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2026-01-30 18:59 -0500
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Beej Jorgensen <beej@beej.us> - 2026-02-02 02:22 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Daniel <me@sc1f1dan.com> - 2026-01-27 21:32 -0800
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-28 06:11 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-01-28 07:07 -0500
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-29 06:30 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-29 15:28 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-29 17:14 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2026-01-30 17:32 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-01-30 13:03 -0700
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-30 21:18 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-31 11:30 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2026-01-31 19:22 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-31 21:08 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-31 22:52 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-02-01 01:37 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-01 05:44 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-02-01 06:15 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-01 06:23 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-02-01 06:50 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-01 06:58 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-02-01 17:56 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-02-01 07:38 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-02-01 07:24 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-02-01 08:28 -0500
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-02-01 19:48 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-02-02 11:44 -0500
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-02-02 19:49 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Beej Jorgensen <beej@beej.us> - 2026-02-03 19:40 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-02-04 00:58 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Beej Jorgensen <beej@beej.us> - 2026-02-05 05:52 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2026-02-04 11:08 +0100
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-02-01 08:18 -0500
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-02-01 08:16 -0500
ed (was: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix) Geoff Clare <geoff@clare.See-My-Signature.invalid> - 2026-02-02 15:31 +0000
Re: ed (was: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-02-02 17:36 +0000
Re: ed (was: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix) rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-02-02 20:19 +0000
Re: ed (was: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-02-02 20:46 +0000
Re: ed (was: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-02-02 21:01 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix jayjwa <jayjwa@atr2.ath.cx.invalid> - 2026-01-28 14:07 -0500
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Adam Sampson <ats@offog.org> - 2026-01-28 19:40 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-01-28 17:30 -0500
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-28 20:19 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-01-28 13:50 -0700
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-28 22:13 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-29 06:30 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-29 15:24 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-29 06:30 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-29 07:59 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-29 19:32 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-29 20:48 +0000
less is *not* really more or less like more? (was: Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix) Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-30 09:51 +0000
Re: less is *not* really more or less like more? (was: Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix) Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-30 19:18 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-01-30 15:14 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-30 15:50 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-30 18:46 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-30 20:56 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-01-31 13:10 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-30 21:15 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-01-31 13:14 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-31 20:57 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2026-01-28 21:50 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-28 22:24 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-29 01:19 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-01-28 17:32 -0500
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-29 01:42 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-01-29 14:34 +0000
pg (was: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix) Geoff Clare <geoff@clare.See-My-Signature.invalid> - 2026-02-02 15:39 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-01-28 17:27 -0500
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-29 01:17 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-01-29 14:06 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-01-29 12:42 -0700
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-01-30 11:01 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-01-30 07:44 -0700
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-30 15:48 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-01-30 12:55 -0800
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-01-31 16:47 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-02-05 10:35 -0800
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-02-09 13:10 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-02-16 15:49 -0800
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-30 21:18 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-01-31 07:40 -0700
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-01-31 17:58 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2026-01-31 19:44 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-02-01 15:09 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-02-01 08:12 -0500
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-31 21:05 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-31 22:52 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-02-01 01:35 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-02-01 06:32 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-02-01 06:49 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-02-02 09:47 -0800
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-02-01 00:40 -0700
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-02-01 08:59 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-02-01 15:06 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-02-01 12:54 -0700
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-02-01 19:57 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-02-01 14:21 -0700
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-02-01 21:31 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-02-02 17:33 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-02-02 18:10 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Anthk <anthk@disroot.org> - 2026-04-15 06:48 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-04-15 15:52 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-15 22:12 +0000
Glibc LFS on 32 bit (was: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix) Geoff Clare <geoff@clare.See-My-Signature.invalid> - 2026-04-17 14:20 +0100
Re: Glibc LFS on 32 bit (was: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix) Bob Eager <throwaway0008@eager.cx> - 2026-04-17 13:48 +0000
Re: Glibc LFS on 32 bit (was: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-17 22:44 +0000
Re: Glibc LFS on 32 bit (was: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix) Geoff Clare <geoff@clare.See-My-Signature.invalid> - 2026-04-20 13:26 +0100
Re: Glibc LFS on 32 bit (was: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-04-20 13:19 +0000
Re: Glibc LFS on 32 bit (was: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-20 21:32 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-02-02 18:08 +0000
Re: PC/IX, was Don Norman: The Truth About Unix John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-02-03 02:29 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-02-03 03:24 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-03 10:56 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-02-03 21:19 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-02-03 21:55 +0000
"POSIX" ACLs (was: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix) Geoff Clare <geoff@clare.See-My-Signature.invalid> - 2026-02-04 13:47 +0000
Re: "POSIX" ACLs (was: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix) scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-02-04 15:41 +0000
Re: "POSIX" ACLs (was: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix) Geoff Clare <geoff@clare.See-My-Signature.invalid> - 2026-02-05 13:33 +0000
Re: "POSIX" ACLs (was: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-02-05 16:13 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2026-02-04 18:16 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-02-04 20:39 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Anthk <anthk@disroot.org> - 2026-04-15 06:48 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-02-03 15:02 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-02-03 15:22 -0700
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-02-03 22:32 +0000
fucking lies [was Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix] Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2026-02-04 15:29 -0500
Re: fucking lies [was Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix] cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-02-04 21:47 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-02-04 15:41 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lars Poulsen <lars@beagle-ears.com> - 2026-02-04 23:43 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-02-05 02:07 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-02-05 09:05 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-02-05 14:55 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-02-05 10:42 -0700
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Anthk <anthk@disroot.org> - 2026-04-15 06:48 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Bob Eager <throwaway0008@eager.cx> - 2026-04-15 09:27 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-04-15 07:40 -0700
torn ACLs [was Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix] Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2026-04-15 14:58 -0400
Re: torn ACLs [was Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix] scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-04-15 20:27 +0000
Re: torn ACLs [was Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix] Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> - 2026-04-16 20:32 -0400
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-02-01 19:55 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-02-02 18:05 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Bill Findlay <findlaybill@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2026-02-04 15:07 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-02-04 09:01 -0700
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-02-04 19:34 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Bill Findlay <findlaybill@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2026-02-04 19:37 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-02-04 20:41 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-02-04 19:20 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Bill Findlay <findlaybill@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2026-02-04 19:36 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-02-04 21:46 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Bill Findlay <findlaybill@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2026-02-05 15:12 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-02-01 08:12 -0500
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-31 18:19 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-29 20:57 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-30 10:03 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-01-28 08:06 -0700
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-01-28 14:38 -0500
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-28 20:34 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-01-28 17:36 -0500
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-29 00:36 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2026-01-29 08:43 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-01-29 15:36 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> - 2026-01-29 11:46 -0500
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-29 19:32 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-29 19:58 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-29 06:30 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-29 12:15 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-29 19:32 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-29 19:55 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-30 09:56 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-30 19:02 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-01-30 11:32 -0800
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-31 05:10 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2026-02-05 03:04 -0400
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-31 11:40 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix "Kurt Weiske" <kurt.weiske@realitycheckbbs.org.remove-m6d-this> - 2026-01-31 08:35 -0800
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-01-30 11:59 -0800
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> - 2026-01-31 11:36 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix John Levine <johnl@taugh.com> - 2026-01-28 22:26 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> - 2026-01-28 20:26 -0700
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-30 09:46 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-30 19:18 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2026-01-31 16:25 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-29 11:22 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-01-27 16:02 -0800
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-28 01:52 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-01-28 16:12 -0800
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-29 00:28 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-01-30 13:07 -0800
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-01-30 21:21 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-01-29 14:36 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-01-28 00:29 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-01-28 16:11 -0800
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-01-29 00:54 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-01-29 11:20 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Anthk <anthk@disroot.org> - 2026-04-15 06:48 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-04-15 11:24 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) - 2026-04-15 15:47 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2026-04-15 16:11 +0000
Re: Don Norman: The Truth About Unix Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2026-04-15 22:10 +0000
Page 2 of 14 — ← Prev page 1 [2] 3 4 … 14 Next page →
| From | scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-28 15:55 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <FjqeR.3$%sT8.2@fx23.iad> |
| In reply to | #233698 |
cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) writes: >In article <unix-20260128130650@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>, >Stefan Ram <ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote: >>Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> wrote or quoted: >>>I do find the name of the TYPE command a bit counterintuitive, though. >>>Not that "more", or worse, "cat" or "less", is any better. >> >> This is probably a textbook case of bikeshedding. For people >> who aren't into this stuff, the first thing that clicks for >> them are the command names, so that's what they end up talking >> about. Doesn't mean it's wrong to talk about command names. >> >> Still, you could say that a name like "rm" instead of "remove" >> is quicker to type and helps avoid the mistake of thinking you >> can just use the command word like the regular English verb. > >And that was the original motivation, of course. > >Multics had a concept of an official name for a command, and >then a short version. So to list the contents of the current >working directory, one might run the `list` command: > <snip description of list vs. ls on Multics> > DEC's VMS supported abbreviating commands to the shortest unique first characters of the command name.
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| From | Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-28 18:31 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <mtv30hF575pU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #233704 |
On 2026-01-28, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>
> DEC's VMS supported abbreviating commands
> to the shortest unique first characters of the command name.
And appears to have been an inspiration for the Cisco IOS CLI, where you
can do the same thing. Also you'll go "show X" much the same as you
would in VMS to get the status for something.
*nix shells eventually evolved completion, which is at least a coarse
approximation of the abbreviation ability, at least for the part of the
command that is an actual executable... though you can program it to do
more if you put enough effort in.
Niklas
--
"So after I specifically asked you not to touch anything, you drank a bottle of
strange blue liquid? It could've been poisonous acid!"
"It could've been, but chances were equally good it was an emperor."
-- Leela and Fry, Futurama
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| From | Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-28 14:10 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <10ldmv2$nut1$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #233705 |
Niklas Karlsson wrote this post by blinking in Morse code: > On 2026-01-28, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote: >> >> DEC's VMS supported abbreviating commands >> to the shortest unique first characters of the command name. > > And appears to have been an inspiration for the Cisco IOS CLI, where you > can do the same thing. Also you'll go "show X" much the same as you > would in VMS to get the status for something. > > *nix shells eventually evolved completion, which is at least a coarse > approximation of the abbreviation ability, at least for the part of the > command that is an actual executable... though you can program it to do > more if you put enough effort in. > > Niklas I use cdargs for directory completion/book-marking allatime. -- When in doubt, parenthesize. At the very least it will let some poor schmuck bounce on the % key in vi. -- Larry Wall in the perl man page
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| From | Rich Alderson <news@alderson.users.panix.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-28 16:26 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <mddbjidpgxo.fsf@panix5.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #233705 |
Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> writes:
> On 2026-01-28, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
>> DEC's VMS supported abbreviating commands
>> to the shortest unique first characters of the command name.
> And appears to have been an inspiration for the Cisco IOS CLI, where you
> can do the same thing. Also you'll go "show X" much the same as you
> would in VMS to get the status for something.
Both VMS and Cisco IOS got the idea from TENEX/TOPS-20 on the PDP-10.
> *nix shells eventually evolved completion, which is at least a coarse
> approximation of the abbreviation ability, at least for the part of the
> command that is an actual executable... though you can program it to do
> more if you put enough effort in.
The first Unix shell to do so was tcsh, "TENEX C shell".
I believe my a.f.c. post regarding the history of this feature is still found
in the tcsh man page, as one of the Berkeley or Sun folks asked my permission
to include it...
--
Rich Alderson news@alderson.users.panix.com
Audendum est, et veritas investiganda; quam etiamsi non assequamur,
omnino tamen proprius, quam nunc sumus, ad eam perveniemus.
--Galen
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-29 00:59 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <mtvpnaF8jlsU6@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #233715 |
On 28 Jan 2026 16:26:27 -0500, Rich Alderson wrote: > The first Unix shell to do so was tcsh, "TENEX C shell". Long live tcsh! I used it for years until it became apparent bash was going to be the Linux default. I had to convert some of my stuff since what can be done with a simple alias in tcsh needs a damn function in bash. Progress...
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-28 22:26 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10le2ff$r9l5$6@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #233705 |
On 28 Jan 2026 18:31:45 GMT, Niklas Karlsson wrote: > *nix shells eventually evolved completion, which is at least a > coarse approximation of the abbreviation ability ... And also applies to other things, like file names. In fact, command-name expansion only works because it matches an existing file name.
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| From | Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-29 06:54 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <10lfhps$189fq$4@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #233721 |
Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote this post by blinking in Morse code: > On 28 Jan 2026 18:31:45 GMT, Niklas Karlsson wrote: > >> *nix shells eventually evolved completion, which is at least a >> coarse approximation of the abbreviation ability ... > > And also applies to other things, like file names. > > In fact, command-name expansion only works because it matches an > existing file name. $ man r <TAB> $ man radiobutton That's a Tk built-in command. There's no such file. On my other box the result is "radeon". -- Ah, but the choice of dreams to live, there's the rub. For all dreams are not equal, some exit to nightmare most end with the dreamer. But at least one must be lived ... and died.
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| From | cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-29 14:50 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10lfs3f$nn6$1@reader2.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #233705 |
In article <mtv30hF575pU1@mid.individual.net>, Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> wrote: >On 2026-01-28, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote: >> >> DEC's VMS supported abbreviating commands >> to the shortest unique first characters of the command name. > >And appears to have been an inspiration for the Cisco IOS CLI, where you I think that mainly came from TENEX/TOPS-20; if you look at the history of Cisco, that sort of makes sense given the folks involved and their backgrounds. Some XKL Darkstar parts can (still?) boot TOPS-20. >can do the same thing. Also you'll go "show X" much the same as you >would in VMS to get the status for something. > >*nix shells eventually evolved completion, which is at least a coarse >approximation of the abbreviation ability, at least for the part of the >command that is an actual executable... though you can program it to do >more if you put enough effort in. Completion and abbreviation aren't exactly the same thing, and completion in the TOPS-20 sense is much more evolved than anything Unix has done. It's a shame that the industry collectively is so fixated on Unix-y systems and spends so little looking at other historical designs: there are a lot of great lessons to be learned out there, if folks would just take a look. - Dan C.
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| From | John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-30 13:04 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <20260130130439.0000298b@gmail.com> |
| In reply to | #233758 |
On Thu, 29 Jan 2026 14:50:23 -0000 (UTC) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) wrote: > Completion and abbreviation aren't exactly the same thing, and > completion in the TOPS-20 sense is much more evolved than anything > Unix has done. Powershell in WinNT has a fairly capable completion system. Sadly, PS is so sesquipedalian that it practically *requires* one. > It's a shame that the industry collectively is so fixated on Unix-y > systems and spends so little looking at other historical designs: > there are a lot of great lessons to be learned out there, if folks > would just take a look. Yeah, that's long been a pet peeve of mine. Unix had some great ideas, of course, but there've been other interesting concepts in systems before and since that were mostly left by the wayside.
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| From | cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-31 15:10 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10ll609$fki$1@reader2.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #233806 |
In article <20260130130439.0000298b@gmail.com>, John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> wrote: >On Thu, 29 Jan 2026 14:50:23 -0000 (UTC) >cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) wrote: > >> Completion and abbreviation aren't exactly the same thing, and >> completion in the TOPS-20 sense is much more evolved than anything >> Unix has done. > >Powershell in WinNT has a fairly capable completion system. Sadly, PS >is so sesquipedalian that it practically *requires* one. (Fantastic use of vocabulary.) >> It's a shame that the industry collectively is so fixated on Unix-y >> systems and spends so little looking at other historical designs: >> there are a lot of great lessons to be learned out there, if folks >> would just take a look. > >Yeah, that's long been a pet peeve of mine. Unix had some great ideas, >of course, but there've been other interesting concepts in systems >before and since that were mostly left by the wayside. Indeed. It's a shame; how many hidden gems are sitting there, buried in the evolutionary graveyard of systems that were just before their time? - Dan C.
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| From | Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-31 11:59 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <mu695kFan7cU4@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #233758 |
On 2026-01-29, Dan Cross <cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net> wrote: > > Completion and abbreviation aren't exactly the same thing, and > completion in the TOPS-20 sense is much more evolved than > anything Unix has done. No indeed, they aren't the same thing. I was only trying to say that it's the closest you'll typically get on a *nix system. I suppose one could write a shell that does support abbreviation. I don't know of any such attempts (but would be very interested if they did exist), and I could see it getting messy the way things work on *nix. Niklas -- "Avoid hyperbole at all costs, its the most destructive argument on the planet" - Mark McIntyre in comp.lang.c
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| From | cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-31 16:39 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10llb7b$916$1@reader2.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #233826 |
In article <mu695kFan7cU4@mid.individual.net>, Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> wrote: >On 2026-01-29, Dan Cross <cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net> wrote: >> >> Completion and abbreviation aren't exactly the same thing, and >> completion in the TOPS-20 sense is much more evolved than >> anything Unix has done. > >No indeed, they aren't the same thing. I was only trying to say that >it's the closest you'll typically get on a *nix system. > >I suppose one could write a shell that does support abbreviation. I >don't know of any such attempts (but would be very interested if they >did exist), and I could see it getting messy the way things work on >*nix. Abbreviations in the sense I understood them earlier in the thread were closer to shell aliases than what I gather you mean here, which is closer to the DEC (and IBM VM) thing of requiring the user to only type a few characters. One could write a shell that mimmicked the latter behavior, as you observed; it would simply walk $PATH, open directories, and keep look for programs that matched a prefix until it found something unambiguous. That's not quite how e.g. the VMS mechanism worked. On VMS, you could define "foreign commands" and specify how much of the prefix you considered significant; that overrode the need for non-ambiguity in the first four characters of the verb prefix. For instance, I have `bl*ank:==type/page nl:` to provide a quick way to clear the screen in my `LOGIN.COM` file. (I'm sure that Rich already knows, but the name is an homage to TOPS-20.) - Dan C.
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-31 20:56 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10llq9p$37blf$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #233826 |
On 31 Jan 2026 11:59:48 GMT, Niklas Karlsson wrote: > I suppose one could write a shell that does support abbreviation. Can’t see the point, myself. In a less dynamic environment (e.g. a DEC OS), where new commands are not added that frequently, you might be able to get away with it. In a typical *nix environment, I don’t think it would work.
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| From | John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-02-02 10:36 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <20260202103605.00007975@gmail.com> |
| In reply to | #233841 |
On Sat, 31 Jan 2026 20:56:25 -0000 (UTC) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote: > > I suppose one could write a shell that does support abbreviation. > > Can’t see the point, myself. In a less dynamic environment (e.g. a DEC > OS), where new commands are not added that frequently, you might be > able to get away with it. In a typical *nix environment, I don’t think > it would work. I suspect the fundamental philosophies are different enough that there is no *good* way to reconcile them - is the shell a formally-specified programming language with a given set of basic operations and a syntax for defining subroutines which may happen to be external, or a system for manipulating files and invoking programs plus the means to glue them together? Either may be valid, but I don't know that you'd ever marry them successfully.
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| From | cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-29 14:39 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10lfrfj$4as$3@reader2.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #233704 |
In article <FjqeR.3$%sT8.2@fx23.iad>, Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net> wrote: >cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) writes: >>In article <unix-20260128130650@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>, >>Stefan Ram <ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote: >>>Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> wrote or quoted: >>>>I do find the name of the TYPE command a bit counterintuitive, though. >>>>Not that "more", or worse, "cat" or "less", is any better. >>> >>> This is probably a textbook case of bikeshedding. For people >>> who aren't into this stuff, the first thing that clicks for >>> them are the command names, so that's what they end up talking >>> about. Doesn't mean it's wrong to talk about command names. >>> >>> Still, you could say that a name like "rm" instead of "remove" >>> is quicker to type and helps avoid the mistake of thinking you >>> can just use the command word like the regular English verb. >> >>And that was the original motivation, of course. >> >>Multics had a concept of an official name for a command, and >>then a short version. So to list the contents of the current >>working directory, one might run the `list` command: >> > <snip description of list vs. ls on Multics> >> > >DEC's VMS supported abbreviating commands >to the shortest unique first characters of the command name. Yeah, that was kind of nifty. TOPS-20/TENEX does it, as well. Prime had the 'AB' command to create an abbreviation, and Multics also has aliases. I guess the point is that many systems have created ways to customize things in this area over the decades. Nothing new under the sun. - Dan C.
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| From | scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-29 16:01 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <0vLeR.288832$KF5d.253214@fx43.iad> |
| In reply to | #233757 |
cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) writes:
>In article <FjqeR.3$%sT8.2@fx23.iad>, Scott Lurndal <slp53@pacbell.net> wrote:
>>cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) writes:
>>>In article <unix-20260128130650@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>,
>>>Stefan Ram <ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote:
>>>>Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> wrote or quoted:
>>>>>I do find the name of the TYPE command a bit counterintuitive, though.
>>>>>Not that "more", or worse, "cat" or "less", is any better.
>>>>
>>>> This is probably a textbook case of bikeshedding. For people
>>>> who aren't into this stuff, the first thing that clicks for
>>>> them are the command names, so that's what they end up talking
>>>> about. Doesn't mean it's wrong to talk about command names.
>>>>
>>>> Still, you could say that a name like "rm" instead of "remove"
>>>> is quicker to type and helps avoid the mistake of thinking you
>>>> can just use the command word like the regular English verb.
>>>
>>>And that was the original motivation, of course.
>>>
>>>Multics had a concept of an official name for a command, and
>>>then a short version. So to list the contents of the current
>>>working directory, one might run the `list` command:
>>>
>> <snip description of list vs. ls on Multics>
>>>
>>
>>DEC's VMS supported abbreviating commands
>>to the shortest unique first characters of the command name.
>
>Yeah, that was kind of nifty. TOPS-20/TENEX does it, as well.
One downside is that all VMS commands needed to be registered
with DCL, even user-generated commands. DCL was a VMS
subsystem running in supervisor mode (alongside RMS in
executive mode and the rest of VMS in kernel mode).
Command parsing was handled by the DCL subystem with
rather rigid rules, if I recall correctly, to ensure
consistency across the command language. Unlike Unix
where the command line is simply tokenized and passed
via the argument vector.
However, VMS did provide an interface to get the command
line so an application could parse it directly (lib$get_foreign).
.Page
.Sbttl {*** PMON$MAIN ***} Main Program
.Psect pmon$main,exe,nowrt,byte
.Entry pmon$main,^m<>
;++
; Check to see if executed from batch job
;--
bbc #cli$v_batch,cli$l_cliflag(ap),1$
bisl #<pmon$m_batch!pmon$m_hard>,flags
1$:
;++
; Do Initialization.
;--
calls #0,pmon$initialize
;++
; Get the foreign command line.
;--
pushaq foreign_block
calls #1,lib$get_foreign
;++
; Set up and call TPARSE to parse the input string.
;--
movzwl foreign_block,parse_block+TPA$L_STRINGCNT
movl foreign_block+4,parse_block+TPA$L_STRINGPTR
pushal pmon$key
pushal pmon$state
pushal parse_block
calls #3,lib$tparse
blbs r0,3042$
3022$:
;++
; Handle Control-C traps
;--
$dclast_s astadr=pmon$ctrap,astprm=#3
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| From | "Kerr-Mudd, John" <admin@127.0.0.1> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-30 17:19 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <20260130171905.c9a948bc1208aea7d7aadefb@127.0.0.1> |
| In reply to | #233704 |
On Wed, 28 Jan 2026 15:55:17 GMT scott@slp53.sl.home (Scott Lurndal) wrote: > cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) writes: > >In article <unix-20260128130650@ram.dialup.fu-berlin.de>, > >Stefan Ram <ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de> wrote: > >>Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> wrote or quoted: > >>>I do find the name of the TYPE command a bit counterintuitive, though. > >>>Not that "more", or worse, "cat" or "less", is any better. > >> > >> This is probably a textbook case of bikeshedding. For people > >> who aren't into this stuff, the first thing that clicks for > >> them are the command names, so that's what they end up talking > >> about. Doesn't mean it's wrong to talk about command names. > >> > >> Still, you could say that a name like "rm" instead of "remove" > >> is quicker to type and helps avoid the mistake of thinking you > >> can just use the command word like the regular English verb. > > > >And that was the original motivation, of course. > > > >Multics had a concept of an official name for a command, and > >then a short version. So to list the contents of the current > >working directory, one might run the `list` command: > > > <snip description of list vs. ls on Multics> > > > > DEC's VMS supported abbreviating commands > to the shortest unique first characters of the command name. > E Enter Build D Get Cryst Attac Pirat Open Oyste -- Bah, and indeed Humbug.
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| From | Peter Flass <Peter@Iron-Spring.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-28 08:11 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <10ld8ud$j82e$3@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #233697 |
On 1/28/26 05:07, Stefan Ram wrote: > Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> wrote or quoted: >> I do find the name of the TYPE command a bit counterintuitive, though. >> Not that "more", or worse, "cat" or "less", is any better. > > This is probably a textbook case of bikeshedding. For people > who aren't into this stuff, the first thing that clicks for > them are the command names, so that's what they end up talking > about. Doesn't mean it's wrong to talk about command names. > > Still, you could say that a name like "rm" instead of "remove" > is quicker to type and helps avoid the mistake of thinking you > can just use the command word like the regular English verb. > If you were really concerned, I guess you could set up aliases for commands. Several times I've been tempted to alias "del" to "rm".
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| From | Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-28 14:15 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <10ldn96$nut1$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #233701 |
Peter Flass wrote this post by blinking in Morse code: > On 1/28/26 05:07, Stefan Ram wrote: >> Niklas Karlsson <nikke.karlsson@gmail.com> wrote or quoted: >>> I do find the name of the TYPE command a bit counterintuitive, though. >>> Not that "more", or worse, "cat" or "less", is any better. >> >> This is probably a textbook case of bikeshedding. For people >> who aren't into this stuff, the first thing that clicks for >> them are the command names, so that's what they end up talking >> about. Doesn't mean it's wrong to talk about command names. >> >> Still, you could say that a name like "rm" instead of "remove" >> is quicker to type and helps avoid the mistake of thinking you >> can just use the command word like the regular English verb. > > If you were really concerned, I guess you could set up aliases for > commands. Several times I've been tempted to alias "del" to "rm". I thought about using del to mv the file(s) to ~/.trash. I mv them to ~/tmp and periodically clean that out. -- Tallulah Bankhead barged down the Nile last night as Cleopatra and sank. -- John Mason Brown, drama critic
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| From | Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-01-28 22:25 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10le2dc$r9l5$5@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #233697 |
On 28 Jan 2026 12:07:54 GMT, Stefan Ram wrote: > Still, you could say that a name like "rm" instead of "remove" is > quicker to type ... Some might say that’s more of a bug than a feature ...
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