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Quoted-printable

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  Quoted-printable "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> - 2021-05-15 22:38 +0000
    Re: Quoted-printable WaltS48 <schw01@invalid.net> - 2021-05-15 19:04 -0400
      Re: Quoted-printable "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> - 2021-05-16 00:32 +0000
    Re: Quoted-printable WaltS48 <schw01@invalid.net> - 2021-05-15 19:06 -0400
      Re: Quoted-printable "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> - 2021-05-16 00:36 +0000
    Re: Quoted-printable Ï Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2021-05-16 07:18 +0100
      Re: Quoted-printable Ï Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2021-05-16 07:19 +0100
      Re: Re: Quoted-printable Ï "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> - 2021-05-16 12:44 +0000
      Re: Quoted-printable Ï !@!.invalid (Ï) - 2021-07-21 19:29 +0100
        Re: Quoted-printable Ï Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2021-07-21 21:20 +0100
          Re: Quoted-printable Ï !@!.invalid (Ï) - 2021-07-22 00:26 +0100
            Re: Quoted-printable Ï Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2021-07-22 18:02 +0100
    Re: Quoted-printable Ralph Fox <-rf-nz-@-.invalid> - 2021-05-16 20:10 +1200
      Re: Quoted-printable "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> - 2021-05-16 13:02 +0000
        Re: Quoted-printable -- Drive by comment Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2021-05-16 09:58 -0600
          Re: Quoted-printable -- Drive by comment "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> - 2021-05-16 16:37 +0000
            Re: Quoted-printable -- Drive by comment Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2021-05-16 15:05 -0600
              Re: Quoted-printable -- Drive by comment "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> - 2021-05-16 21:49 +0000
                Re: Quoted-printable -- Drive by comment Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2021-05-16 23:32 -0600
        Re: Quoted-printable Ralph Fox <-rf-nz-@-.invalid> - 2021-05-17 07:17 +1200
          Re: Quoted-printable "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> - 2021-05-16 21:52 +0000
      Re: Quoted-printable "Adam H. Kerman" <ahk@chinet.com> - 2021-05-16 16:52 +0000

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#502 — Quoted-printable

I don't use Thunderbird, but for some reason, other Usenet poster do.

One poster posts intermittently in Quoted-Printable. Sometimes it
happens in followup to a poster who posts in UTF-8.

Quoted-printable is outrageous on Usenet, which has always been 8-bit
clean.

Where is the setting to tell Thunderbird NEVER to post in
quoted-printable?

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#504

On 5/15/21 6:38 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> I don't use Thunderbird, but for some reason, other Usenet poster do.
>
> One poster posts intermittently in Quoted-Printable. Sometimes it
> happens in followup to a poster who posts in UTF-8.
>
> Quoted-printable is outrageous on Usenet, which has always been 8-bit
> clean.
>
> Where is the setting to tell Thunderbird NEVER to post in
> quoted-printable?

Is this nefarious violation in any of the posts in this newsgroup or the 
new Firefox group?

It could be they are composing in HTML using Edit > Paste As Quotation 
instead of Edit > Paste Without Formatting.

I do that, then send in plain text.

-- 
OS: Fedora 34 Workstation - Gnome 40 Desktop
https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/get-involved/

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#508

WaltS48 <schw01@invalid.net> wrote:
>On 5/15/21 6:38 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

>>I don't use Thunderbird, but for some reason, other Usenet poster do.

>>One poster posts intermittently in Quoted-Printable. Sometimes it
>>happens in followup to a poster who posts in UTF-8.

>>Quoted-printable is outrageous on Usenet, which has always been 8-bit
>>clean.

>>Where is the setting to tell Thunderbird NEVER to post in
>>quoted-printable?

>Is this nefarious violation in any of the posts in this newsgroup or the 
>new Firefox group?

I've seen it in these newsgroups too.

>It could be they are composing in HTML using Edit > Paste As Quotation 
>instead of Edit > Paste Without Formatting.

>I do that, then send in plain text.

I'll ask; thanks.

Why is pasting involved at all? It's a followup article.

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#505

On 5/15/21 6:38 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> I don't use Thunderbird, but for some reason, other Usenet poster do.
>
> One poster posts intermittently in Quoted-Printable. Sometimes it
> happens in followup to a poster who posts in UTF-8.
>
> Quoted-printable is outrageous on Usenet, which has always been 8-bit
> clean.
>
> Where is the setting to tell Thunderbird NEVER to post in
> quoted-printable?

I also don't use an outdated 11 year old news application like trn 
4.0-test77 (Sep 1, 2010).

-- 
OS: Fedora 34 Workstation - Gnome 40 Desktop
https://www.thunderbird.net/en-US/get-involved/

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#509

WaltS48 <schw01@invalid.net> wrote:
>On 5/15/21 6:38 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

>>I don't use Thunderbird, but for some reason, other Usenet poster do.

>>One poster posts intermittently in Quoted-Printable. Sometimes it
>>happens in followup to a poster who posts in UTF-8.

>>Quoted-printable is outrageous on Usenet, which has always been 8-bit
>>clean.

>>Where is the setting to tell Thunderbird NEVER to post in
>>quoted-printable?

>I also don't use an outdated 11 year old news application like trn 
>4.0-test77 (Sep 1, 2010).

trn 4 is a lot older than that. That was just a minor bug fix.

trn 4 doesn't break anything.

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#511 — Re: Quoted-printable Ï

Adam H. Kerman wrote:

> I don't use Thunderbird, but for some reason, other Usenet poster do.
> 
> One poster posts intermittently in Quoted-Printable. Sometimes it
> happens in followup to a poster who posts in UTF-8.

I think one thing which can trigger it is if UTF-8 characters are used 
in header fields, I have added such a character to the subject ...

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#512 — Re: Quoted-printable Ï

Andy Burns wrote:

> I think one thing which can trigger it is if UTF-8 characters are used 
> in header fields, I have added such a character to the subject ...

That only made it use QP in that specific header, left body content as UTF-8

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#516 — Re: Re: Quoted-printable Ï

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
>Adam H. Kerman wrote:

>>I don't use Thunderbird, but for some reason, other Usenet poster do.

>>One poster posts intermittently in Quoted-Printable. Sometimes it
>>happens in followup to a poster who posts in UTF-8.

>I think one thing which can trigger it is if UTF-8 characters are used 
>in header fields, I have added such a character to the subject ...

The standard requires the use of encoded-word on Subject, a different
encoding than quoted-printable. I'm discussing what happens in the body
of the article.

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#911 — Re: Quoted-printable Ï

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

> I think one thing which can trigger it is if UTF-8 characters are used
> in header fields, I have added such a character to the subject ...

hi
-- 
fold, spindle, mutilate.

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#918 — Re: Quoted-printable Ï

Ï wrote:

> hi

It's all gone a bit quiet in the pub ...

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#921 — Re: Quoted-printable Ï

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

> Ï wrote:
> 
> > hi
> 
> It's all gone a bit quiet in the pub ...
>

There wasn't much to speak of anyway, alas.

To get back on topic:  I was surprised to see that my previous post
didn't have a MIME content type and charset declaration; I can only
suppose that the body was 7-bit clean.  The =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=CF?= 
in the headers was explicitly encoded per instance, of course.

-- 
fold, spindle, mutilate.

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#938 — Re: Quoted-printable Ï

Ï wrote:

> To get back on topic:  I was surprised to see that my previous post
> didn't have a MIME content type and charset declaration; I can only
> suppose that the body was 7-bit clean.  The =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=CF?=
> in the headers was explicitly encoded per instance, of course.
>

yes that's right, if the body is 7-bit clean, doesn't need any content 
type/charset, as they don't apply to headers, so individual headers get 
QP encoded

The other one that catches people by surprise is UTF-7 encoding, as in

sn+AKE-pe

not sure if that can be used in headers?

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#513

On Sat, 15 May 2021 22:38:52 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman wrote:

> I don't use Thunderbird, but for some reason, other Usenet poster do.
> 
> One poster posts intermittently in Quoted-Printable. Sometimes it
> happens in followup to a poster who posts in UTF-8.

Assuming below that you mean a QP _body_, not a QP _header_ ...

> Quoted-printable is outrageous on Usenet, which has always been 8-bit
> clean.

Not always 8-bit clean, such as in posting to a moderated newsgroup.  
The posting news server emails the post to the moderator for approval.  
That email path has not always been 8-bit clean.

And calling it "outrageous" is a bit over the top. You sure you aren't 
trolling?

> Where is the setting to tell Thunderbird NEVER to post in
> quoted-printable?

Your answer is in the very first search result of this search.
<https://groups.google.com/g/mozilla.support.thunderbird/search?q=%22quoted-printable%22%20preference>


Thunderbird has, for a very long time now, defaulted to posting the 
body _not_ in quoted-printable.

To post the body in quoted-printable, the poster would have had to 
change this setting, and probably for a reason.  I would guess that
the sender may not jump at your order to change it back.  😎


-- 
Kind regards
Ralph

ζητεῖτε καὶ εὑρήσετε

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#517

Ralph Fox <-rf-nz-@-.invalid> wrote:
>On Sat, 15 May 2021 22:38:52 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman wrote:

>>I don't use Thunderbird, but for some reason, other Usenet poster do.

>>One poster posts intermittently in Quoted-Printable. Sometimes it
>>happens in followup to a poster who posts in UTF-8.

>Assuming below that you mean a QP _body_, not a QP _header_ ...

Uh, dude? Quoted-printable and MIME-encoded (encoded-word) headers are
two different types of encoding used for unrelated purposes. You aren't
being helpful.

>>Quoted-printable is outrageous on Usenet, which has always been 8-bit
>>clean.

>Not always 8-bit clean, such as in posting to a moderated newsgroup.  
>The posting news server emails the post to the moderator for approval.  
>That email path has not always been 8-bit clean.

That part is off Usenet. The mail2news gateway should be quite capable
of handling the 7-bit to 8-bit translation. There is a mail2news gateway
involved after the article has been approved at the point the approved
article is injected into Usenet.

What moderator are you thinking of isn't capable of this?

>And calling it "outrageous" is a bit over the top.

I stand by that criticism.

>You sure you aren't trolling?

Ralph, if you are bizarrely suspicious of the reason I asked the
question, then don't post a followup. Ignore me.

>>Where is the setting to tell Thunderbird NEVER to post in
>>quoted-printable?

>Your answer is in the very first search result of this search.
><https://groups.google.com/g/mozilla.support.thunderbird/search?q=%22quoted-printable%22%20preference>

>Thunderbird has, for a very long time now, defaulted to posting the 
>body _not_ in quoted-printable.

>To post the body in quoted-printable, the poster would have had to 
>change this setting, and probably for a reason.  I would guess that
>the sender may not jump at your order to change it back.

The O.P. didn't know what setting controlled it. Another poster found
the encoded articles to be unreadable. Have you gotten all the bizarre
accusations out of your system or aren't you done yet?

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#518 — Re: Quoted-printable -- Drive by comment

On 5/16/21 7:02 AM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> Another poster found the encoded articles to be unreadable.

I find it strange that someone wouldn't be able to read quoted-printable 
in raw ASCII from.  --  That seems like an indication that there are 
non-ASCII (or at least characters that are considered to be 
non-printable ASCII) in the message body.

My experience is that QP will only encode non-printable ASCII or some 
white space characters at the end of the line (which are themselves 
related to line folding / format flowed).



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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#519 — Re: Quoted-printable -- Drive by comment

Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> wrote:
>On 5/16/21 7:02 AM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

>>Another poster found the encoded articles to be unreadable.

>I find it strange that someone wouldn't be able to read quoted-printable 
>in raw ASCII from. . . . 

I don't know why he can't decode. But let's not speculate as I'm not
trying to help him with that issue.

>--  That seems like an indication that there are 
>non-ASCII (or at least characters that are considered to be 
>non-printable ASCII) in the message body.

>My experience is that QP will only encode non-printable ASCII or some 
>white space characters at the end of the line (which are themselves 
>related to line folding / format flowed).

That's not true. It's generally used to encoding printable non-ASCII
characters whose character code is known.

The single "=" is a soft line break, which is not an ASCII concept, nor
is it a format=flowed concept. In format=flowed, every ASCII white space
is treated like a soft line break, and a non-printing character for soft
line break isn't used. Line boundaries within the paragraph are ignored,
except the final line's line break. The line just breaks at the white
space character according to screen width.

Soft line break character has a purpose in word processing. I think it's
troublesome in other uses, but I'm sure I'll be told off for expressing
that opinion as well.

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#532 — Re: Quoted-printable -- Drive by comment

On 5/16/21 10:37 AM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> That's not true. It's generally used to encoding printable non-ASCII 
> characters whose character code is known.

I believe we're describing the same thing differently.  Specifically, 
I'm referring to printable ASCII as -- first -- ASCII characters which 
-- second -- are between character / byte number 32 and 127.  --  Though 
you can quibbler over if the delete character (127) is printable or not 
as it doesn't have a glyph and controls motion.

> The single "=" is a soft line break, which is not an ASCII concept, 
> nor is it a format=flowed concept.

Okay.

> In format=flowed, every ASCII white space is treated like a soft 
> line break, and a non-printing character for soft line break isn't 
> used.

Not every white space character.  Tabs and spaces are treated differently.

> Line boundaries within the paragraph are ignored, except the final 
> line's line break.

Nope.

Line boundaries /are/ important in format=flowed.  (Maybe QP is 
different.)  FF also requires that a space be at the end of a line to 
indicate that FF should be used when displaying the line.  No space at 
the end of the line means no FF is used.

If I have multiple (~72 character) lines with a trailing space (not 
including the last line) and one in the middle that is missing the 
trailing space, then FF will render the multiple lines as (at least) two 
logical / unwrapped lines.

What's special about the last line of a paragraph is that it does not 
include the trailing space.

The following six (6) lines render as one logical line unwrapped by FF.

> a 
> b 
>   
>   
> c 
> d

The line contents (ignoring the quotation "> " bit) is as follows.
1a<space>
2b<space>
3<space>
4<space>
5c<space>
6d

The spaces at the end of the lines tell FF to unwrap the next line.  So, 
you can see (if you have FF enabled) that the first two lines / 
paragraph is combined with the last two lines / paragraph on one longer 
logical line.

The end of the paragraph isn't important to FF.  The end of a sequence 
of lines ending in a space is important to FF.

> The line just breaks at the white space character according to 
> screen width.

It is extremely important to FF that there being a trailing space at the 
end of the line.

> Soft line break character has a purpose in word processing. I think 
> it's troublesome in other uses, but I'm sure I'll be told off for 
> expressing that opinion as well.

I believe that FF uses the space at the end of the line as if it means 
the same thing as a soft line break.  I'm a fan of FF and go out of my 
way to make sure that it works, including re-wrapping things in such a 
way as to support FF.  --  I really like how FF works in an almost 
completely transparent way and is backwards compatible with non-FF.  I 
say almost, because the trailing spaces can be noticed if you pay 
attention and / or are looking for them.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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#533 — Re: Quoted-printable -- Drive by comment

Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> wrote:
>On 5/16/21 10:37 AM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:

>>That's not true. It's generally used to encoding printable non-ASCII 
>>characters whose character code is known.

>I believe we're describing the same thing differently.  Specifically, 
>I'm referring to printable ASCII as -- first -- ASCII characters which 
>-- second -- are between character / byte number 32 and 127.  --  Though 
>you can quibbler over if the delete character (127) is printable or not 
>as it doesn't have a glyph and controls motion.

My objection was to the bit of quote that you excised

	That seems like an indication that there are non-ASCII (or at
	least characters that are considered to be non-printable ASCII)
	in the message body.

Except for the two characters used for line boundaries -- line feed and
carriage return -- the non-printing ASCII characters generally aren't
used on Usenet. I don't know why DEL or NUL would be used ever nor why
they'd get encoded. Many of the control characters are teletypewriter
specific anyway.

>>The single "=" is a soft line break, which is not an ASCII concept, 
>>nor is it a format=flowed concept.

>Okay.

>>In format=flowed, every ASCII white space is treated like a soft 
>>line break, and a non-printing character for soft line break isn't 
>>used.

>Not every white space character.  Tabs and spaces are treated differently.

You are correct. The ASCII space character itself, not whitespace
generally.

>>Line boundaries within the paragraph are ignored, except the final 
>>line's line break.

>Nope.

Yes.

>Line boundaries /are/ important in format=flowed.  (Maybe QP is 
>different.)

Quoted-printable and format=flowed are two different concepts. First
quoted-printable would have to be decoded, then the rules of format=flowed
applied to lines ending in trailing spaces so it displays as expected.

>FF also requires that a space be at the end of a line to 
>indicate that FF should be used when displaying the line.  No space at 
>the end of the line means no FF is used.

Yes. Any line that ends in a line boundary not immediately preceeded
by an ASCII space character is treated as a paragraph-ending line. But
line boundaries within the paragraph when using format=flowed are
ignored for display purposes. That's the key feature.

>If I have multiple (~72 character) lines with a trailing space (not 
>including the last line) and one in the middle that is missing the 
>trailing space, then FF will render the multiple lines as (at least) two 
>logical / unwrapped lines.

Ok, but one would argue that format=flowed wasn't used for the line
missing the trailing space. format=flowed at least defaults to something
that's still displayable with the missing trailing space.

>What's special about the last line of a paragraph is that it does not 
>include the trailing space.

You are correct.

I agree with the rest of what you wrote, which I am snipping, but you
got the last word.

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#537 — Re: Quoted-printable -- Drive by comment

On 5/16/21 3:49 PM, Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> Except for the two characters used for line boundaries -- line feed 
> and carriage return -- the non-printing ASCII characters generally 
> aren't used on Usenet. I don't know why DEL or NUL would be used 
> ever nor why they'd get encoded. Many of the control characters are 
> teletypewriter specific anyway.

ACK

> You are correct. The ASCII space character itself, not whitespace
> generally.

;-)

> Quoted-printable and format=flowed are two different concepts. First 
> quoted-printable would have to be decoded, then the rules of 
> format=flowed applied to lines ending in trailing spaces so it displays 
> as expected.

Agreed.

> Yes. Any line that ends in a line boundary not immediately preceeded 
> by an ASCII space character is treated as a paragraph-ending line. But 
> line boundaries within the paragraph when using format=flowed are 
> ignored for display purposes. That's the key feature.

Minor indigestion over what constitutes a paragraph in this context. 
But I digress.

> Ok, but one would argue that format=flowed wasn't used for the 
> line missing the trailing space. format=flowed at least defaults to 
> something that's still displayable with the missing trailing space.

Seeing how format=flowed is applied to entire MIME / body sections, 
there isn't a way to selectively turn it on / off on a per line basis. 
It's either on for the section or it's not.

> I agree with the rest of what you wrote, which I am snipping, but 
> you got the last word.

IMHO it's not about who gets the last word.  It's about sharing 
understandings, finding where they differ, and striving to learn from 
understanding the differences.  Who has the last word, that's immaterial 
to me.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die

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#530

On Sun, 16 May 2021 13:02:29 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman wrote:

> Ralph Fox <-rf-nz-@-.invalid> wrote:
>> On Sat, 15 May 2021 22:38:52 -0000 (UTC), Adam H. Kerman wrote:
> 
>>> I don't use Thunderbird, but for some reason, other Usenet poster do.
> 
>>> One poster posts intermittently in Quoted-Printable. Sometimes it
>>> happens in followup to a poster who posts in UTF-8.
> 
>> Assuming below that you mean a QP _body_, not a QP _header_ ...
> 
> Uh, dude? Quoted-printable and MIME-encoded (encoded-word) headers are
> two different types of encoding used for unrelated purposes. You aren't
> being helpful.

Dude, MIME-encoded headers can use QP encoding or Base64 encoding.

Your post was about the QP encoding, not the purpose.  Now you are moving 
the goalposts.

>>> Quoted-printable is outrageous on Usenet, which has always been 8-bit
>>> clean.
> 
[...]
>
> The mail2news gateway should be quite capable
> of handling the 7-bit to 8-bit translation.
> What moderator are you thinking of isn't capable of this?

Now you are moving the goalposts from "always been" to the present tense.

>>> Where is the setting to tell Thunderbird NEVER to post in
>>> quoted-printable?
> 
>> Your answer is in the very first search result of this search.
>> <https://groups.google.com/g/mozilla.support.thunderbird/search?q=%22quoted-printable%22%20preference>
> 
[...]
> 
> Have you gotten all the bizarre
> accusations out of your system or aren't you done yet?

I gave you the answer, and it took you another 4.5 hours to see it.


-- 
Kind regards
Ralph

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