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How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database

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  How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-05 05:08 -0700
    Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2025-12-05 12:17 +0000
      Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-05 06:28 -0700
        Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2025-12-05 17:42 +0000
          Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-05 17:16 -0700
            Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-12-06 02:02 +0100
              Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-12-05 17:25 -0800
              Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-05 18:53 -0700
                Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-12-06 13:02 +0100
                  Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-06 10:13 -0700
                    Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-12-07 21:43 +0100
                      Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2025-12-08 01:17 +0000
                        Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-08 07:04 -0700
                          Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-12-10 00:19 +0100
                            Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-18 14:37 -0700
                        Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-28 10:54 -0700
                Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-12-06 14:43 +0000
                  Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-06 10:13 -0700
                    Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-12-06 18:02 +0000
                      Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-06 12:06 -0700
                        Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-12-06 15:07 -0800
              Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-12-06 13:32 +0000
                Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-12-06 14:50 +0100
                  Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-08 21:19 -0700
                    Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-12-10 00:26 +0100
                      Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-09 19:54 -0700
                        Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-12-11 22:37 +0100
                          Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-11 19:13 -0700
                          Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-12-12 10:24 +0000
                            Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-12 10:24 -0700
                            Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-12-14 21:00 +0100
                              Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-14 16:44 -0700
                                Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-12-16 23:16 +0100
                                  Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-17 00:29 -0700
                Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-12-08 13:02 +0000
                  Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-08 09:04 -0700
                    Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-12-10 00:31 +0100
                      Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-09 20:05 -0700
        Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-12-06 13:36 +0000
          Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-06 10:13 -0700
            Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-12-06 20:51 +0000
              Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2025-12-06 22:38 +0000
                Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-06 23:53 -0700
                  Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2025-12-07 10:23 +0000
                    Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-07 09:29 -0700
                Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-12-07 11:05 +0000
                  Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2025-12-07 14:02 +0000
                    Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-12-07 22:36 +0000
                      Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-07 20:14 -0700
              Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-12-07 21:53 +0100
                Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-07 20:27 -0700
              Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-07 20:37 -0700
                Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2025-12-08 09:16 +0000
                  Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-08 06:46 -0700
            Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-12-07 22:05 +0100
              Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-08 06:50 -0700
                Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-12-10 00:37 +0100
                  Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-09 19:24 -0700
                  Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-12-10 19:10 +0000
                    Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-12-10 19:30 +0000
                      Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-10 14:30 -0700
                        Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-12-11 07:20 +0000
                          Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-11 19:21 -0700
                    Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2025-12-10 19:37 +0000
                      Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-10 14:35 -0700
                      Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-12-11 14:40 +0000
                    Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-10 14:31 -0700
                    Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-12-11 22:45 +0100
                      Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-17 02:41 -0700
                        Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-17 02:50 -0700
                          Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-17 03:27 -0700
        Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2025-12-06 18:07 +0000
          Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-12-06 20:51 +0000
            Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-07 01:04 -0700
    Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-12-05 10:39 -0800
    Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-12-05 11:11 -0800
      Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2025-12-05 19:59 +0000
        Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2025-12-06 00:08 +0000
          Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-05 17:24 -0700
            Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2025-12-06 22:51 +0000
              Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-07 01:25 -0700
                Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-12-07 22:11 +0100
            Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-12-07 22:24 +0100
              Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2025-12-08 01:34 +0000
                Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> - 2025-12-08 08:13 +0000
                Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-28 17:14 -0700
                  Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> - 2025-12-28 20:55 -0800
                    Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Tyrone <none@none.none> - 2025-12-29 15:12 +0000
                      Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-29 15:04 -0700
                        Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Hank Rogers <Hank@nospam.invalid> - 2025-12-29 17:52 -0600
                        Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Hank Rogers <Hank@nospam.invalid> - 2025-12-29 18:45 -0600
      Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-12-05 21:17 +0100
        Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Jolly Roger <jollyroger@pobox.com> - 2025-12-05 22:17 +0000
          Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-05 17:04 -0700
        Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-12-07 21:13 +0100
    Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database Marian <marianjones@helpfulpeople.com> - 2025-12-05 17:55 -0700
      Re: How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple WPS database "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-12-06 13:01 +0100

Page 5 of 5 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 [5]

#190180

J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> BSSID not found in Apple's database. This may be a new or unregistered
> access point.

Practically, the only way your BSSID won't be in Apple's WPS database is
either no Apple mobile device ever got close enough to upload it in recent
time (assume a week or two), or, you've appended "_nomap" to your SSID.

Or, if, as you noted below, this system only works in select countries.

> But I thought your whole beef was that your BSSID was in the database,
> despite your having added "_nomap" to it. But you _can't_ add "_nomap"
> to a string of hex pairs.

This is Apple's policy. I followed it. Yet my BSSID is in their database.

 <https://support.apple.com/en-us/102515>
 "The owner of a Wi-Fi access point can opt it out of 
  Apple's Location Services - which prevents its location 
  from being sent to Apple to include in Apple's crowd-sourced 
  location database - by changing the access point's SSID (name) 
  to end with '_nomap.' For example, 'Access_Point' would be 
  changed to 'Access_Point_nomap.'"

I can't explain more than that since I should NOT be in Apple's database.

>> There are some WPS databases, as I noted in my prior post, which can take
>> an SSID input, apparently, if that's what you really want to query on.
>>  <https://wifidb.net/wifidb/opt/search.php>
> 
> If by that you mean I can use its name, I tried that page, just filling
> in its name - and nothing _seemed_ to happen when I clicked submit. Then
> after 20 seconds or so (when I retried, anyway), it came up with
> 
> Search Results: 0 Points ( Save Link | Map | JSON | KMZ | GPX )
> 
> . (So both wavedigger and wifidb didn't find me. Since they look like
> they're US-limited, I'm not surprised.)

You have to enter a BSSID into the URL like this:
 <https://wavedigger.networksurvey.app/?tab=bssid&bssid=11-22-33-AA-BB-CC>
If you're not in Apple's WPS database, consider yourself safe (for now).

I received a response from a security professional and from Mozilla but not
yet from Apple so I asked an Apple VP who is my neighbor to help me out.

The highest-level Google neighbor is a VP in HR which isn't a good
connection; the rest are engineers at Google but not management personnel.

I'll tackle Google later. Right now I demand that Apple explain to my
satisfaction why my access point is in their database when I opted out.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#190205

On 2025-12-07 09:25, Marian wrote:
> J. P. Gilliver wrote:


> I'll tackle Google later. Right now I demand that Apple explain to my
> satisfaction why my access point is in their database when I opted out.

That's easy: they do not see you SSID because it is hidden, so they do 
not see the _nomap in it.

They should take the "hidden" part as indicative of not wanting to be 
listed, though. This can be a bug, not actual malice.

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#190207

On 2025-12-06 01:24, Marian wrote:
> There are some WPS databases, as I noted in my prior post, which can take
> an SSID input, apparently, if that's what you really want to query on.
>   <https://wifidb.net/wifidb/opt/search.php>

Doesn't find mine.

There is also a map, which can display my city in Spain, but it freezes 
when it reaches a resolution that might display wifis.

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#190218

Carlos E.R. wrote:

> Marian wrote:
> 
>>   <https://wifidb.net/wifidb/opt/search.php>
> 
> Doesn't find mine.

Nor mine, by SSID name (not hidden or _nomap suffix)

I wouldn't really expect anyone to have wardriven around here with a 
laptop running Vistumbler, but you never know ...

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#190232

Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:
> Carlos E.R. wrote:
> 
>> Marian wrote:
>> 
>>>   <https://wifidb.net/wifidb/opt/search.php>
>> 
>> Doesn't find mine.
> 
> Nor mine, by SSID name (not hidden or _nomap suffix)
> 
> I wouldn't really expect anyone to have wardriven around here with a 
> laptop running Vistumbler, but you never know ...

Mine is and I would it expect it to be as it's not hidden nor nomapped. 

This isn't about wardriving. It is routine collection by Apple (and google)
devices that are nearby. 

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#190773

Andy Burns wrote:
> Nor mine, by SSID name (not hidden or _nomap suffix)
> 
> I wouldn't really expect anyone to have wardriven around here with a 
> laptop running Vistumbler, but you never know ...

Hi Andy, 

In the United States, it's a public record where everyone who owns a home
lives, so there's a 1:1 relationship between them and their router. 

Cybernews: *Anyone can tap into your WiFi location data to track you*
explains how Apple's WPS can be exploited for mass surveillance.
<https://cybernews.com/privacy/apple-beams-wifi-location-data-privacy-risk/>

The researchers already showed anyone in the world is already able to use
Apple's WPS db to track Loretta Anne Jameson's AP which is currently
located at 4302 Josey Circle, Shreveport, LA 71109. 

When she moves, I'll let you know where she moves her router to.
Likewise with any of her neighbors.

 Ronda and Alfred Beel, 4310 Josey Cir, Unit #2-A
 Benjamin and Eric Choyica 1/4 and, 4318 Josey Cir, Unit #2-A
 Jeffrey Devin, 4306 Josey Cir, Unit #2-A
 Flora Ann Jackson Gellion, 4338 Josey Cir, Unit #2-A
 Lonzie D. Groniger, 4321 Josey Cir, Unit #2-A
 Lutrisher Walton Hill, 4329 Josey Cir, Unit #2-A
 Melvin Hawthorn, Jr. 1/2 and, 4823 Josey Cir, Unit #2-A
 Mary E. Gebbs Hendy, 4816 Josey Cir, Unit #2-A
 Shane Jameson Sr., 4330 Josey Cir, Unit #2-A
 Rosemary Ellerbee Jones, 4317 Josey Cir, Unit #2-A
 Charles Nesh, 4824 Josey Cir, Unit #2-A
 James and Dollie Henson Smythe, 4314 Josey Cir, Unit #2-A
 Sherryn Marie Smythe, 4820 Josey Cir, Unit #2-A
 Terrince Steedman, 4326 Josey Cir, Unit #2-A
 Pamela Tomas, 4828 Josey Cir, Unit #2-A
 Trivia Yashica Watken, 4827 Josey Cir, Unit #2-A
 etc.

Anyone can do this for any home in the United States.
Which is why this is so dangerous to privacy.
-- 
I'm here to help others understand the deeper mechanics of WPS that 
most people never comprehend (& that Apple marketing never explains).

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#190782

On 2025-12-28 16:14, Marian wrote:
> Andy Burns wrote:
>> Nor mine, by SSID name (not hidden or _nomap suffix)
>>
>> I wouldn't really expect anyone to have wardriven around here with a 
>> laptop running Vistumbler, but you never know ...
> 
> Hi Andy,
> In the United States, it's a public record where everyone who owns a home
> lives, so there's a 1:1 relationship between them and their router.

Only assuming the accuracy of the database...

...which isn't accurate...

...because devices that AREN'T in the supposed location of an AP are 
reporting that one is NEAR their actual location.

> Cybernews: *Anyone can tap into your WiFi location data to track you*
> explains how Apple's WPS can be exploited for mass surveillance.
> <https://cybernews.com/privacy/apple-beams-wifi-location-data-privacy- 
> risk/>
> 
> The researchers already showed anyone in the world is already able to use
> Apple's WPS db to track Loretta Anne Jameson's AP which is currently
> located at 4302 Josey Circle, Shreveport, LA 71109.

How do you know that?

> When she moves, I'll let you know where she moves her router to.
> Likewise with any of her neighbors.
> 
> Ronda and Alfred Beel, 4310 Josey Cir, Unit #2-A
> Benjamin and Eric Choyica 1/4 and, 4318 Josey Cir, Unit #2-A
> Jeffrey Devin, 4306 Josey Cir, Unit #2-A
> Flora Ann Jackson Gellion, 4338 Josey Cir, Unit #2-A
> Lonzie D. Groniger, 4321 Josey Cir, Unit #2-A
> Lutrisher Walton Hill, 4329 Josey Cir, Unit #2-A
> Melvin Hawthorn, Jr. 1/2 and, 4823 Josey Cir, Unit #2-A
> Mary E. Gebbs Hendy, 4816 Josey Cir, Unit #2-A
> Shane Jameson Sr., 4330 Josey Cir, Unit #2-A
> Rosemary Ellerbee Jones, 4317 Josey Cir, Unit #2-A
> Charles Nesh, 4824 Josey Cir, Unit #2-A
> James and Dollie Henson Smythe, 4314 Josey Cir, Unit #2-A
> Sherryn Marie Smythe, 4820 Josey Cir, Unit #2-A
> Terrince Steedman, 4326 Josey Cir, Unit #2-A
> Pamela Tomas, 4828 Josey Cir, Unit #2-A
> Trivia Yashica Watken, 4827 Josey Cir, Unit #2-A
> etc.
> 
> Anyone can do this for any home in the United States.
> Which is why this is so dangerous to privacy.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#190797

On Dec 28, 2025 at 11:55:12 PM EST, "Alan" <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

> On 2025-12-28 16:14, Marian wrote:
>> Andy Burns wrote:
>>> Nor mine, by SSID name (not hidden or _nomap suffix)
>>> 
>>> I wouldn't really expect anyone to have wardriven around here with a
>>> laptop running Vistumbler, but you never know ...
>> 
>> Hi Andy,
>> In the United States, it's a public record where everyone who owns a home
>> lives, so there's a 1:1 relationship between them and their router.
> 
> Only assuming the accuracy of the database...
> 
> ...which isn't accurate...
> 
> ...because devices that AREN'T in the supposed location of an AP are
> reporting that one is NEAR their actual location.

And STILL assuming that a moving router ALWAYS indicates the person moved. 
MUCH more likely that the router was sold/given away.

Not to mention that since their are "public records where everyone who owns a
home
lives" then what is this router adding anyway?  If you know where I live, why
does the router even matter?

The answer to that is obvious. It only matters because Arlen thinks it makes
Apple "look bad".

Which is Arlen's lifelong quest.

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#190800

Tyrone wrote:
> it makes Apple "look bad".

What Apple does is what "makes Apple look bad", not me.

What's important is that Apple's WPS database implementation is insecure. 
That's not opinion. That's fact which was described in the research.

Google's WPS database access is nothing like Apple's WPS database access.
Anyone in the world can access Apple's entire WPS db without restriction.

All I did was reproduce what the researchers said was easily possible.
And it was.

What the researchers didn't note, and which I learned, and I'm likely only
one out of millions who knows this, was not only does Apple not respect
their own published privacy policy on opting out, but they have no
intention of respecting their published privacy opt-out policy.

This is not opinion.
This is fact.

Only one out of millions of people know what I just said above.
We know it because we're extremely intelligent and well informed.

Bear in mind if Google or Mozilla did what Apple did, I would be on their
case too, because what Apple is doing is the antithesis of what Apple
"says" it does.

It's legally, morally & ethically reprehensible what Apple is doing.
If Google or Mozilla did what Apple does, I'd say the same of them.

But they didn't.
Only Apple does this.
-- 
I'm here to help others understand the deeper mechanics of WPS that 
most people never comprehend (& that Apple marketing never explains).

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#190802

Marian wrote on 12/29/2025 4:04 PM:
> Tyrone wrote:
>> it makes Apple "look bad".
> 
> What Apple does is what "makes Apple look bad", not me.
> 
> What's important is that Apple's WPS database implementation is 
> insecure. That's not opinion. That's fact which was described in the 
> research.
> 
> Google's WPS database access is nothing like Apple's WPS database access.
> Anyone in the world can access Apple's entire WPS db without restriction.
> 
> All I did was reproduce what the researchers said was easily possible.
> And it was.
> 
> What the researchers didn't note, and which I learned, and I'm likely only
> one out of millions who knows this, was not only does Apple not respect
> their own published privacy policy on opting out, but they have no
> intention of respecting their published privacy opt-out policy.
> 
> This is not opinion.
> This is fact.
> 
> Only one out of millions of people know what I just said above.
> We know it because we're extremely intelligent and well informed.
> 
> Bear in mind if Google or Mozilla did what Apple did, I would be on their
> case too, because what Apple is doing is the antithesis of what Apple
> "says" it does.
> 
> It's legally, morally & ethically reprehensible what Apple is doing.
> If Google or Mozilla did what Apple does, I'd say the same of them.
> 
> But they didn't.
> Only Apple does this.

So, I have to ask ... WHY aren't you taking any positive action marion?

Anonymously Posting rubbish on usenet will not help us, nor you.  Apple 
doesn't even read it, let alone anyone that could intervene.

I realize you are a secret agent and must maintain your privacy to top 
secret level, but surely you realize few can even read your secret stuff.

You are pissing up a rainpipe, Marion 007.

This message will self-destruct in 3 seconds ...  sssssss.

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#190803

Marian wrote on 12/29/2025 4:04 PM:
> Tyrone wrote:
>> it makes Apple "look bad".
> 
> What Apple does is what "makes Apple look bad", not me.
> 
> What's important is that Apple's WPS database implementation is 
> insecure. That's not opinion. That's fact which was described in the 
> research.
> 
> Google's WPS database access is nothing like Apple's WPS database access.
> Anyone in the world can access Apple's entire WPS db without restriction.
> 
> All I did was reproduce what the researchers said was easily possible.
> And it was.
> 
> What the researchers didn't note, and which I learned, and I'm likely only
> one out of millions who knows this, was not only does Apple not respect
> their own published privacy policy on opting out, but they have no
> intention of respecting their published privacy opt-out policy.
> 
> This is not opinion.
> This is fact.
> 
> Only one out of millions of people know what I just said above.

Thank goodness!  If only a few people and yourself know this, the rest 
of us likely have some time left.

> We know it because we're extremely intelligent and well informed.
>

Your superior intellect is well known Marion.  But who are the others in 
the "We"?

I'm sure everyone would like to thank this genius cadre for their efforts.

No, on second thought perhaps not.  I'm sure all these people are 
cloaked in secrecy, and we should do nothing to blow their cover.


This message will self destruct in 3 seconds.

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#190119

On 2025-12-05 20:11, Alan wrote:
> On 2025-12-05 04:08, Marian wrote:
>> How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple 
>> WPS
>> database and, if it is in Apples insecure WPS database, what else is 
>> there.
>>
>> If you'd like me to test if your access point BSSID is in the Apple WPS
>> database, then simply respond with that BSSID & I'll run the Windows
>> scripts I just wrote based on research published recently of the flaws in
>> Apple's methods (some of that research is listed in the signature below).
>>
>> Note that your BSSID should not be in Apple's database if you've opted 
>> out
>> by appending "_nomap" to your access point SSID (e.g., "my.ssid_nomap").
>>
>> None of my access point BSSIDs are in the Apple database, but I have the
>> optout keywords _optout_nomap appended to all of them, but once I confirm
>> the process works, I'll be glad to write a tutorial so others can do it
>> too.
>>
>> Let me know which BSSIDs you wish me to look up for you in Apple's WPS.
> 
> Or, if you want to do it without involving Arlen:
> 
> <https://wavedigger.networksurvey.app/?tab=bssid>
> 
> I checked mine...
> 
> (And I've been using the same router for more than 5 years)
> 
> ...and surprise, surprise: it's not in there!

Mine is.

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;

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#190121

On 2025-12-05, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 2025-12-05 20:11, Alan wrote:
>> On 2025-12-05 04:08, Marian wrote:
>>> How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly insecure Apple 
>>> WPS
>>> database and, if it is in Apples insecure WPS database, what else is 
>>> there.
>>>
>>> If you'd like me to test if your access point BSSID is in the Apple WPS
>>> database, then simply respond with that BSSID & I'll run the Windows
>>> scripts I just wrote based on research published recently of the flaws in
>>> Apple's methods (some of that research is listed in the signature below).
>>>
>>> Note that your BSSID should not be in Apple's database if you've opted 
>>> out
>>> by appending "_nomap" to your access point SSID (e.g., "my.ssid_nomap").
>>>
>>> None of my access point BSSIDs are in the Apple database, but I have the
>>> optout keywords _optout_nomap appended to all of them, but once I confirm
>>> the process works, I'll be glad to write a tutorial so others can do it
>>> too.
>>>
>>> Let me know which BSSIDs you wish me to look up for you in Apple's WPS.
>> 
>> Or, if you want to do it without involving Arlen:
>> 
>> <https://wavedigger.networksurvey.app/?tab=bssid>
>> 
>> I checked mine...
>> 
>> (And I've been using the same router for more than 5 years)
>> 
>> ...and surprise, surprise: it's not in there!
>
> Mine is.

So one out of several. Not a great batting average.

-- 
E-mail sent to this address may be devoured by my ravenous SPAM filter.
I often ignore posts from Google. Use a real news client instead.

JR

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#190123

Jolly Roger wrote:
>>> <https://wavedigger.networksurvey.app/?tab=bssid>
>>> 
>>> I checked mine...
>>> 
>>> (And I've been using the same router for more than 5 years)
>>> 
>>> ...and surprise, surprise: it's not in there!
>>
>> Mine is.
> 
> So one out of several. Not a great batting average.

Those are great team-player posts that add value to the discussion topic!
 <https://networksurvey.app/wavedigger>

But that doesn't query the Google WPS database (AFAIK), nor any others.
Just Apple's WPS. 

Additional added value is that one can query your router's BSSID against
several other crowdsourced WPS databases, including Combain, Milnikov,
WifiDB, Freifunk (in addition to Apple/Wavedigger & Google) using... 
 <https://github.com/GONZOsint/geowifi>

Major WPS databases include the following:
 1. Apple Location Services (which WaveDigger can query)
    <https://wavedigger.networksurvey.app/?tab=bssid>
 2. Google Location Services: 
    <https://developers.google.com/maps/documentation/geolocation/overview>
 3. WiGLE.net: 
    <https://api.wigle.net/api/v2/network/search?netid=AA:BB:CC:11:22:33
 4. Combain: 
    <https://combain.com/positioning-solutions/combain-location-api/>
 5. WifiDB:
    <https://wifidb.net/wifidb/opt/search.php>
 6. Freifunk: (only for Germany)
    <https://freifunk.net/> <https://berlin.freifunk.net/de/map/>
 7: OpenCelliD: (combines cell towers with Wi-Fi access points)
    <https://opencellid.org/#zoom=16&lat=37.77889&lon=-122.41942>
 8. Skyhook Wireless: (discontinued, acquired by Qualcomm in 2014)
    <https://skyhook.com/>
 9. Navizon: (discontinued)
 10. Milnikov: (discontinued?)
    <https://www.milnikov.ru/geo/> 
 11. OpenWifi: (discontinued)
    <https://freifunk.net/>
 12. Mozilla MLS: (discontinued)
    <https://wiki.mozilla.org/CloudServices/Location>

Note: Apple has historically documented an opt-out using '_nomap for Wi-Fi
access points, and that language appeared in Apple Support materials for
years. 
 <https://cybernews.com/privacy/apple-beams-wifi-location-data-privacy-risk/>

Even as recently as last year, Krebs clarified Apple's opt-out policy:
 *Why Your Wi-Fi Router Doubles as an Apple AirTag*
 <https://krebsonsecurity.com/2024/05/why-your-wi-fi-router-doubles-as-an-apple-airtag/>
 "In late March 2024, Apple quietly updated its website to note 
  that anyone can opt out of having the location of their wireless 
  access points collected and shared by Apple by appending '_nomap' 
  to the end of the Wi-Fi access point's name (SSID). 
  <https://web.archive.org/web/20240328071851/https://support.apple.com/en-us/102515>
  Adding '_nomap' to your Wi-Fi network name also blocks Google 
  from indexing its location."
  <https://support.google.com/maps/answer/1725632?hl=en#zippy=%2Chow-do-i-opt-my-access-point-out-of-google-location-services>

Note that page 14 of this 16-page paper also says:
 <https://par.nsf.gov/servlets/purl/10540853>
 "Apple has indicated that they are on track to make several changes
  to their WPS in order to better protect user privacy. At the time 
  of writing, they have given AP operators the ability to opt out 
  of inclusion in Apple's WPS by appending the string _nomap to a
  Wi-Fi network’s SSID. This change brings it in line with Google's 
  WPS and WiGLE, which have also excluded SSIDs with _nomap (Google) 
  and _nomap and _optout (WiGLE) since at least 2016"

Note that they said WiGle uses "optout" while everyone else uses 
_nomap, but I think WIGle also uses "_nomap" according to this:
 <https://wigle.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2330>

Note it says what I've said all along about hiding the SSID broadcast:
 "Note that unless you turn of your beacon your network is still 
  blasting the presence of your network to anyone within radio distance."
-- 
Working together as a team, we can all noticably improve our privacy.

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#190199

On 2025-12-05 21:17, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2025-12-05 20:11, Alan wrote:
>> On 2025-12-05 04:08, Marian wrote:
>>> How to test if your access point BSSID is in the highly
>>> insecure Apple WPS database and, if it is in Apples insecure WPS
>>> database, what else is there.
>>>
>>> If you'd like me to test if your access point BSSID is in the
>>> Apple WPS database, then simply respond with that BSSID & I'll
>>> run the Windows scripts I just wrote based on research published
>>> recently of the flaws in Apple's methods (some of that research
>>> is listed in the signature below).
>>>
>>> Note that your BSSID should not be in Apple's database if you've 
>>> opted out
>>> by appending "_nomap" to your access point SSID (e.g., "my.ssid_nomap").
>>>
>>> None of my access point BSSIDs are in the Apple database, but I
>>> have the optout keywords _optout_nomap appended to all of them,
>>> but once I confirm the process works, I'll be glad to write a
>>> tutorial so others can do it too.
>>>
>>> Let me know which BSSIDs you wish me to look up for you in Apple's WPS.
>>
>> Or, if you want to do it without involving Arlen:
>>
>> <https://wavedigger.networksurvey.app/?tab=bssid>
>>
>> I checked mine...
>>
>> (And I've been using the same router for more than 5 years)
>>
>> ...and surprise, surprise: it's not in there!
> 
> Mine is.

Curio: it is a new router that I put in service on October 9, so only 
two months ago. The SSID is of course the same one as the old one, but 
not the BSSID. That was a fast update.

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#190130

It's important to keep in mind how dangerous this Apple WPS system is:
 *Why Your Wi-Fi Router Doubles as an Apple AirTag*
 <https://krebsonsecurity.com/2024/05/why-your-wi-fi-router-doubles-as-an-apple-airtag/>

This 16-page paper shows the "potential for abuse", which is what we need
to understand if we're to take Apple's WPS system privacy abuse seriously.
 *Surveilling the Masses with Wi-Fi-Based Positioning Systems*
 <https://par.nsf.gov/servlets/purl/10540853>

This example below will show most people (whose BSSID is in Apple's WPS
database) how they can track their own neighbors, just as a local example
(even though the tracking can happen to anyone anywhere in the world 
since Apple puts no restriction on who can track anyone at any time).

For example, with WaveDigger, anyone can query the Apple WPS database:
 <https://networksurvey.app/wavedigger>

Since WaveDigger has a special query mode where you can enter a single SSID
or BSSID, and instead of just returning that access point's location, it
also pulls in the surrounding access points that Apple's horribly insecure
Wi-Fi Positioning System has observed in the same area, so just try this.

Windows:
1. Press Win+R
2. Type: cmd
3. In the command prompt, type:
   netsh wlan show networks mode=bssid
4. Look for your SSID name
5. Under it, find "BSSID" lines
6. Copy the MAC address (format: AA:BB:CC:DD:EE:FF)

Linux:
1. Open a terminal
2. Type: sudo iwlist scan
3. Find your SSID in the output
4. Look for "Address:" lines
5. Copy the MAC address (format: AA:BB:CC:DD:EE:FF)

MacOS:
1. Open a terminal
2. Type: airport -s
3. Find your SSID in the list
4. Copy the BSSID shown (format: AA:BB:CC:DD:EE:FF)

Once you have the BSSID, you can paste it into WaveDigger lookup tool.
1. Open the WaveDigger site:
   https://wavedigger.networksurvey.app/?tab=bssid
2. In the "BSSID" field, type your MAC address:
   AA:BB:CC:DD:EE:FF
3. Click the "Lookup" or "Search" button.
4. The map will show the location of that access point.
   If you enable "include surrounding access points",
   it will also list nearby BSSIDs Apple has observed.

Once you have the BSSID of all your neighbors, if one of them moves to a
new house, you can track them if they use their router at the new home.
-- 
Privacy takes intelligence to understand, but most people give up.

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#190140

On 2025-12-06 01:55, Marian wrote:
> Linux:
> 1. Open a terminal
> 2. Type: sudo iwlist scan
> 3. Find your SSID in the output
> 4. Look for "Address:" lines
> 5. Copy the MAC address (format: AA:BB:CC:DD:EE:FF)

~# iw dev wlan1 link
Connected to AA:BB:CC:DD:EE:FF (on wlan1)  <===
	SSID: ....
	freq: 5580
	RX: 3443127087 bytes (2936179 packets)
	TX: 47463826 bytes (444078 packets)
	signal: -33 dBm
	tx bitrate: 433.3 MBit/s VHT-MCS 9 80MHz short GI VHT-NSS 1

	bss flags:	short-preamble short-slot-time
	dtim period:	3
	beacon int:	100
~#

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.
ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;

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