Path: csiph.com!eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written,sci.physics,alt.astronomy Subject: Re: 1st Mars Colonists Should Be 'Prepared to Die,' Elon Musk Says Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2016 23:40:18 -0000 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 72 Sender: Jim Pennino Message-ID: <2gi8cd-sh3.ln1@mail.specsol.com> References: <57EEEA3E.5698@ix.netcom.com> <7ta5cd-ctl.ln1@mail.specsol.com> Injection-Info: mx02.eternal-september.org; posting-host="db4120ef82bbc153014637d4cd15a795"; logging-data="9237"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1+EuFgaICDLK6r3yxDSaha1" User-Agent: tin/2.2.1-20140504 ("Tober an Righ") (UNIX) (SunOS/5.10 (i86pc)) Cancel-Lock: sha1:MCZIqS4a74wBvHJ5fQ0maBbyX0Q= Xref: csiph.com rec.arts.sf.written:452766 sci.physics:599171 alt.astronomy:286489 In sci.physics J. Clarke wrote: > In article , jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com > says... >> >> In sci.physics Juho Julkunen wrote: >> > In article <7ta5cd-ctl.ln1@mail.specsol.com>, jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com >> > says... >> >> >> >> In sci.physics Juho Julkunen wrote: >> >> > In article , >> >> > treifamily@gmail.com says... >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> Musk thinks that about a million people are the minimum needed to >> >> >> create a self-sustaining colony. I'm a bit sceptical of that - the >> >> >> variety of skills and machinery that keeps first-world culture going >> >> >> is mindboggling. >> >> > >> >> > They wouldn't need the entire breadth of that, though. Colony laser >> >> > focused on the parts that are needed to sustain it on Mars might get >> >> > away with less. >> >> >> >> Yes, there are some finished goods manufacturing you wouldn't need on >> >> Mars such as boat builders and bicycle makers, but you need just about >> >> all of the material stock and piece makers, i.e. wire, insulation, electronic >> >> parts, PC boards, metal stock, screws, nuts, bolts, etc. >> > >> > Some stuff on that list can be delivered by a village. Integrated >> > circuits not so much, but I'm not sure a colony couldn't get by with a >> > more rudimentary computing technology. >> > >> > We would have to rebuild the know-how for it. Maybe invent a new field >> > of easily supportable technology. >> >> Point totally missed. Do you have a clue what goes into making something >> as simple as a 6-32 screw starting with dirt? > > What do I have to work with? You're assuming that people are going to > be cast naked onto the Martian surface and make everything from scratch. You have dirt to work with which may or may not contain usefull minerals in a concentrated enough form to be usefull. To make a 6-32 screw you need an iron mine and all the equipment, a funace to convert iron ore into iron, then the stuff to turn iron into steel (assuming you have the other ingrediants for steel on hand), then machinery to turn steel into working stock, which in this case is round rod, then machinery to convert the round rod into a screw. >> > Then again, if they don't have a considerable logistics support in >> > place on Earth, shipping a million colonists to Mars shouldn't even be >> > on the table. >> >> The issue is what would it take to be self sustainng, not how much >> stuff would have to be shipped from Earth. > > No, the issue is what would it take to make it _viable_. The British > tried very hard to _prevent_ their colonies from becoming self- > sustaining. If it can ship something back from Mars that is worth more > than shipping the stuff it needs from Earth then it's viable even if it > is never self-sustaining. Nope, read the post that started all this; the issue is self sustaining. What the British did hundreds of years ago is irrelevent. Name something on Mars that is worth more than tthe shipping cost to Earth. -- Jim Pennino