Path: csiph.com!aioe.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: The Starmaker Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity Subject: Re: Why is there more than one explanation for the Twin Paradox Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2017 10:25:48 -0700 Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server Lines: 89 Message-ID: <599F0C1C.490F@ix.netcom.com> References: <1cb6775d-d2c1-498b-9576-088e3e7ed2be@googlegroups.com> <4790542.Sb9uPGUboI@PointedEars.de> <587d73ca-c675-4557-99a1-0d85d758a1ff@googlegroups.com> <0a540f5f-3cbc-4851-b3e6-f5e0554d4466@googlegroups.com> <8cbdd349-4c74-43cf-ab92-22834a42e8fb@googlegroups.com> <692ef002-ca41-4360-a474-a8f9834050e6@googlegroups.com> <599F0915.4871@ix.netcom.com> Reply-To: starmaker@ix.netcom.com NNTP-Posting-Host: X9ItFNC7Zcz4l6MobL/YRA.user.gioia.aioe.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@aioe.org X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.8.2 X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.04Gold (WinNT; U) X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Antivirus: Avast (VPS 170824-0, 08/24/2017), Outbound message Xref: csiph.com sci.physics.relativity:429922 The Starmaker wrote: > > Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog wrote: > > > > On Thursday, August 24, 2017 at 10:14:04 AM UTC-5, tjrob137 wrote: > > > On 8/19/17 5:30 AM, Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog wrote: > > > > On Friday, August 18, 2017 at 5:08:29 PM UTC-5, tjrob137 wrote: > > > >> Note that muons experiencing 10^18 g as they go around a ring have the > > > >> same lifetime measured in the lab as muons that travel at the same speed along a > > > >> straight line with essentially no acceleration. So acceleration does not affect > > > >> the timekeeping mechanism of muon decay. > > > > > > > > Acceleration should not have _no_effect_at_all_ on muon decay, merely > > > > _unmeasurable_ effects. > > > > > > Hmmmm. From the structure of the standard model, specifically its Lorentz > > > invariance, then insofar as the SM is valid, acceleration itself can have no > > > effect on muon decay. > > > > > > There certainly are interactions with the vacuum that affect muon decay. But the > > > vacuum is itself Lorentz invariant, so they are already included when comparing > > > muon decay at rest to muon decay in flight, or muon decay over different paths > > > (e.g. ring or straight). > > > > > > > Are there any sorts of heuristic arguments that one > > > > might apply to estimate what level of acceleration might significantly affect > > > > muon decay? > > > > > > Yes. More solid than merely "heuristic", see above. The result is zero, insofar > > > as the SM is valid. > > > > > > > By analogy, I was considering singly-ionized helium traveling around a ring. > > > > Given Coulomb's law and the dimensions of the helium ion, I imagine that the > > > > second electron should be stripped from the helium ion, leaving an alpha > > > > particle, at accelerations above, say, 5e21 g or so. > > > > > > Hmmm. Certainly magnets can strip electrons from atoms and ions [#]. But we > > > model this as due to the magnet, not the acceleration. I don't know what it > > > would take to strip He+ to alpha. > > > > > > [#] Large, high-energy accelerators at Fermilab, CERN, KEK, > > > etc. all start by accelerating H- ions, because stripping > > > H- to H+ (proton) is the best way to inject the beam into > > > a ring; this means that before the injection one must design > > > the beam transport with magnets weak enough to not strip the > > > H- beam prematurely. BTW injection stripping is done with a > > > foil, not a magnet (to preserve the beam emittance). > > > > > > > Looking at a table of muon properties, I see nothing obvious that would allow > > > > me to perform any sort of "Fermi-estimate" on what accelerations might begin to > > > > have a significant effect on muon lifespan. > > > > > > In the standard model there is no such effect. > > > > > > One can speculate on how "physics beyond the standard model" might affect muon > > > decay, but that is a wide-open speculation, and there are more fruitful avenues > > > to explore (i.e. reactions that are more amenable to experimental tests). Some > > > searches that are actively being pursued: > > > mu- A => e- A (neutrinoless) > > > mu+ -> e+ gamma (neutrinoless) > > > neutrinoless double beta decay (numerous nuclei) > > > endpoint of tritium beta decay > > > neutrino oscillations > > > > > > This last is so solidly established experimentally that many physicists consider > > > the SM to be enhanced with nonzero neutrino masses and flavor mixing. But there > > > are several different ways to do that.... > > > > Thanks! Lots of interesting detail in your response! > > another Tom Roberts responding to himself with a different handle of > Prokaryotic Caspase Homolog??? wats that all about? > > it's lonely at the top, isn't it... why do people create new handles? like PD changes to Odd then claims he don't know who PD is?? i've been using starmaker for so long i forgot to change it. am i suppose to change it????? or create new people to answer my own post? I can answer my own post with my own handle, why change it???? Thanks! Lots of interesting detail in my response!