Path: csiph.com!feeder.erje.net!1.eu.feeder.erje.net!news.unit0.net!news.mixmin.net!aioe.org!bofh.it!news.nic.it!robomod From: Matthias Klose Newsgroups: linux.debian.maint.python Subject: Re: Updated PEP 394 (python and python2 commands) Date: Fri, 18 May 2018 19:40:01 +0200 Message-ID: References: X-Mailbox-Line: From debian-python-request@lists.debian.org Fri May 18 17:29:56 2018 Old-Return-Path: X-Amavis-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.7 tagged_above=-10000 required=5.3 tests=[BAYES_00=-2, LDO_WHITELIST=-5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Policyd-Weight: using cached result; rate:hard: -5 Old-X-Envelope-From: doko@debian.org Old-X-Envelope-To: Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=doko@debian.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFSG0WgBEADcWrLbnzkO07eqpkPsp0fRr2Tuhp+MABPwSS0msANqPiy9eWYGIXf2zHam Z77aKC+dykpnHn5ibvgOa70P5PBT+Ydk5EzI6Y98FvPQkuPFxkE29NK3Gn3DPHuAyfVpE0FM lMr9e10K+ZhY++nG4ZzHQUkg52iwlZ5twjpF0nwbtfHUMAPStCGC+orXnqcdmUq96r94+lZ2 Dsb2S67TM2umnqkzuIHlbhBXtnFiDtql+wW/Axqa6hGAVqks6OTX5NxGr+FTQ0UuptxhADZ2 S4cpftUROB7DgpDl3lGicvuOwW/UWJZMp0MwKJqu56Ajgu3IQM2oTTNmDLRP243gR5PxC1Yw VXhCG+juCO4Y1ous5fwCthiOE/3vOtF+GHRDVgikNKjv5MnsqbMJytAMIZS2uN07SPZKC4vX Vcw6KCBOBQhlrLTeffmPpnQzSUFwPJAySFFWjjpGLngglGM75zRa59PkVkPkeXKqz0O33xXm q6v3YNJNQgNVLAfn6rWmAckUly9mXmjAEvonrkR5impsyUGYPFHxb8TDhsGB6t9MHtMhr4pt wBMXv8aIWHfQndRvigfJC/xy7Su7qEaChuCjHEVVTuEEsnkKXOm7++VJsXG3wJBvqENu/9Lp uktBijnojbYrb0z+qgKt6jhBjUEy/iyfgQb4hwRX4jZ1T891dwARAQABzSBNYXR0aGlhcyBL bG9zZSA8ZG9rb0BkZWJpYW4ub3JnPsLBdwQTAQgAIQIbAwIeAQIXgAUCVIbUigULCQgHAwUV CgkICwUWAgMBAAAKCRC9fqpgd4+m9Rb7EADSQHuJpyADEuZxqlPMhJ/5WHM84Z+k4EQvnaqp czkKmZvtjCDn/8mhIAJ+oZdZer5VITkkUz/bX0ASV+2IDP6wWnZN5DGB9Ta1qFKfXRrVQVC1 bxtw5Rc+l7/dn9Jcz2v6uIzXUaybxRdEvsPrWYEM3WtRiiftm3J2HE7RzC4RplsSIUwSiT26 w5YbQo9im9rABkKdKw2+Y34YZv2QwCDcNqDfWqJQOu7DeN5PZ23V1nPRTcP907Y7OMkqzWOl Jl1Sj2q5g5fXha8c6+KQb52Yiki+7U9Z7pHiFCBEHWoDNMyNl4kUZM2Z5rwyFGAndtp+uHhY W9YIvuLxzvZPSWyEQIkG/k64rjx84SaQ04RuBBj3U1A1zMO/G4tI2rJ/+/TvV4Oa9iG37amI 7navLAtrXKkI1GFuNc/OUX6pezw7jypV3LB+6Z61tkYuwcNcz7NGAmHVuzVH5DI2udc1UogH 0yUO307IyhrmY1vM7Fohcg2fkwYba6PrqsyYhBowFmEk4j9kMuVIJplsEvKx0bIZY4xYgWQg UE1fvl3Fh4zWKzbopV0hMpcWvO0jxR4TG8vJkyZSyZtrRQiyYlIddJkk8HjD9MFSgO/cMQW6 x31A6eaQAhgNVChfv8KN8AZDbVoWvMz4RRwkl9Up8tinNWt2argz540M6DGz4JRHSScL0c7B TQRUhtFoARAAxRsii1f5GJEGnj2KR2Ct1zpIJCXta18v9/NhuVuSBygPYR2XCmVZTd3YivJN dnV5EFr8eQu+hgUxsq2OWAVFJSVb+WtLub0t3APSwTwo5Y+cZvupEwy31Btr9yRZlDns7MTW At1PFoG8iPwQwK6jbnPM+bap0t4o+/nd/7TWGBPgJNPVMxPoA+xCdMnZoiwDDsYsy8Mf6dZC ZfyKqrnDL9pe2hGBIvcY9HmuNP4wsgtPj9vCb01RK2Qd+wRDeePZ/k9sLwbfmeO9Ts8oCBoV Kd948zrQeIWnd2jiFpiROyUd0FeuNwO5CbSmV8HjBCZy8KSnBl/ruNlTIxnwTfpROCkchq8x 1mPQ1k+l+V/dzIGROAcgpNRKoPsciu0nXROgfgl7Fe2UPL7IfZ97UyoJicXlrhYF9jAc2pEQ apdTun88wIGDeLKE/pVl2XNq+PdN4AgFXIGuJZiP2BQdQ2/UU4NERSPzaf6kaDn3D8Q7sLqs cMa8cI7kHLr+fop5VYgubEi/Fv0W7F7YoeEARUMqAt37MpkJW7Mun4JxC/Rjju7JBD6U94Vi +Xqst2uTEp2gPc077CRUkQ2sN0oLzc6AyYCaD3NTFC0CcQA4vj7cMH5v61scpHu4gAMkTmZ/ 1Ys9LNT6lK51A/wJga9MMN3Uw3J48Oi9zv6woU19vlp7Z0EAEQEAAcLBXwQYAQgACQUCVIbR aAIbDAAKCRC9fqpgd4+m9Sj9D/0XNPuzW4p3qPZwwlA834fmMGTHlyxvmz5yCccJl20OM4qO dRtfSUCUfqjeQjUXePDYDfZb+Tys2A1Y0/kN+Y7nkv56WI5Ou1zkXwth3xcRtMar8DIpyfIf CZKy21ybD+GvJZOpRR/n3Gy1f4bnveEZHuitPIm1QPHEjJqHsUjZWhHKqe4J7yA50KYH9hNU N7FP5eE4WczpGrBmfX32zZkf5y0J4vX2YHyMJS4kV2h0fYbP7B3A4D0g7tTdXmmqCi7mgyVC J1iab+XeJ27VeNIOjmKByWiQllcjganhedN5Sh9hFoinjgjcfSmGv1zzgPM8A3hn9vVsOs/8 +ptDR8v7Zk/xIj/sX1SULWHA1m4Z0KvfgPVzFa5vEIYcPLNyhowm63ajrwaR+j/xSWjnKmST nNtaJnxEfFxjEFF6dhZ7cNaIZ2tQCjqMElhSe7JjmVHIxfGKbHJ4tyV9G6wSk++igbWWZNG9 3kZ/4mWpAlAzdStGACmErgfm+zlK3UgKzGWHsiwNB+OFdxmZVXnwCLdRkbvd4vT0PzBrjFOk c55kiQ/DTONVrsniWlttHvaYrlai6IbsUd2krqQcGJJeI4cnHX4pTDcZ2VLowJpDsfV05BV7 WthbUjKgI55iI3ZE5WATelv8dWV8zdLVlWjvYraTxtpSwdkle4wQNntkOdYAsw== User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15968 List-ID: List-URL: List-Archive: https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/e716f04a-b835-45d4-09c0-26e5b35b18de@debian.org Approved: robomod@news.nic.it Lines: 91 Organization: linux.* mail to news gateway Sender: robomod@news.nic.it X-Original-Date: Fri, 18 May 2018 19:29:19 +0200 X-Original-Message-ID: X-Original-References: <6dc7af52-174f-04c5-9149-cc5affa8afb1@debian.org> <20180518091951.jk6gvppn7yxyx5zp@sar0.p1otr.com> <2129b34f-a837-2d14-4400-3fa44785885d@debian.org> <1820251.d4O7StkOgF@kitterma-e6430> Xref: csiph.com linux.debian.maint.python:10564 On 18.05.2018 18:14, Scott Kitterman wrote: > On Friday, May 18, 2018 11:31:37 AM Matthias Klose wrote: >> On 18.05.2018 05:19, Piotr Ożarowski wrote: >>> [Matthias Klose, 2018-05-17] >>> >>>> PEP 394 [1] saw an update in April 2018 [2], the diffs at [3]. >>>> >>>> The most important change from my point of view is >>>> >>>> -* It is suggested that even distribution-specific packages follow the >>>> - ``python2``/``python3`` convention, even in code that is not intended >>>> to >>>> +* It is strongly encouraged that distribution-specific packages use >>>> ``python2`` + or ``python3`` rather than ``python``, even in code that >>>> is not intended to>> >>>> operate on other distributions. >>> >>> FTR: the day this PEP asks us to point /usr/bin/python to python3 is the >>> day I start ignoring it, to say the least. >>> >>>> I don't think there is enough time to replace all python shebangs to >>>> python2 in time for the buster release, however there is no harm in >>>> starting this process now. >>> >>> too late, this process has already started (since dh_python2 v3.20180313) >>> ;-P> >>>> But I'd like to get this done for buster+1, in the case we still need to >>>> ship a Python2/2.7, so that buster+1 doesn't ship with a python command, >>>> but maybe with a python2 command. >>> >>> we already ship /usr/bin/python2. Removing /usr/bin/python makes sense >>> as well (administrators can symlink it to whatever they want once it's >>> gone from Debian), but... >>> >>>> The first step is to create a set of python2* packages in >>>> python-defaults, with contain all the python2* symlinks, and having the >>>> python* packages depend on those python2 packages. This change itself >>>> is a no-op and shouldn't affect anything. >>>> >>>> As a second step change the dh_python2 (in python-defaults), and >>>> dh-python to generate dependencies on python2 instead of python, and >>>> replacing the shebang from python to python2. >>>> >>>> This should cover the majority of packages to replace dependencies on >>>> python with dependencies on python2. There are packages which don't >>>> check for python2, so these probably need adjustments. But again, the >>>> goal for buster+1 is to ship as few Python2 dependent packages as >>>> possible, if any. >>> >>> this is useless. What will we gain by renaming packages? >> >> who said, that we should rename packages? The only packages being dropped >> are the python defaults packages. >> >>> I refuse to do that work! >> >> There is no work in renaming the packages. It's about the dependency >> generation and the shebang. >> >>> The only message it sends is that we don't think /usr/bin/python or >>> python package is Python 2.7 anymore and that's definitely not the >>> message I want to send. >> >> No, that's not what the PEP says. > > Upstream is free to follow Arch in their insanity (even if more slowly) and > suggest pointing /usr/bin/python at a python3 version is a reasonable thing to > do (eventually). It's not (and they even explain why in the PEP). Debian > doesn't have to follow. We can have higher standards. I don't see how "having higher standards" and being explicit about using "python2" are exclusive. And I'm asking you how you come to your statement about "Upstream insanity", and to your statement that upstream suggests of pointing python to python3. > I don't see any reason to be able to "apt install python2" instead of "apt > install python". I think it's perfectly fine the way it is now where the same > package provides /usr/bin/oython and /usr/bin/python2. If you exclude > eventually pointint /usr/bin/python at a python3 version (and we should), then > there's no value in doing it. > > I agree with Piotr. I don't think we need to "create a set of python2* > packages". no, it gives users the freedom what to do with the python link, with the distro explicitly going away of using the unversioned python. This doesn't hurt the distro. And the amount of work to do that should not be excessive for the set of packages targeted to buster+1, if there are any. Matthias