Path: csiph.com!news.redatomik.org!aioe.org!bofh.it!news.nic.it!robomod From: Barry Warsaw Newsgroups: linux.debian.maint.python Subject: Re: MBF for deprecating Python2 usage Date: Tue, 08 Aug 2017 04:00:02 +0200 Message-ID: References: X-Original-To: debian-python X-Mailbox-Line: From debian-python-request@lists.debian.org Tue Aug 8 01:53:53 2017 Old-Return-Path: X-Amavis-Spam-Status: No, score=-11.9 tagged_above=-10000 required=5.3 tests=[BAYES_00=-2, FOURLA=0.1, LDO_WHITELIST=-5, PGPSIGNATURE=-5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Policyd-Weight: using cached result; rate: -5 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B4F30A13-5E83-4570-89D8-3C861CF8336A"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 MIME-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/15112 List-ID: List-URL: List-Archive: https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/DC9E7BD5-11FE-48E1-8B72-DE5E1EE32F83@debian.org Approved: robomod@news.nic.it Lines: 90 Organization: linux.* mail to news gateway Sender: robomod@news.nic.it X-Original-Date: Mon, 7 Aug 2017 18:53:31 -0700 X-Original-Message-ID: X-Original-References: <3109A909-3338-4717-BFD2-D65E9206FD7F@debian.org> <9614BFBC-E260-48A6-B722-DDD41E715A20@kitterman.com> <92E6FF73-391C-45FE-A213-6AAED284629D@debian.org> <1502142757.2351.35.camel@ghic.org> <690EAE7E-8005-4723-891E-C2E30C3B35AD@debian.org> <85shh3lzp1.fsf@benfinney.id.au> <1502149701.2351.60.camel@ghic.org> <85inhyn8zk.fsf@benfinney.id.au> Xref: csiph.com linux.debian.maint.python:9731 --Apple-Mail=_B4F30A13-5E83-4570-89D8-3C861CF8336A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Aug 7, 2017, at 18:28, Ben Finney wrote: > The issue is: Invoking =E2=80=98python=E2=80=99 today gets an = interpereter, Python 2, > that will work with some code and not others. It should not tomorrow > invoke an incompatible interpreter without *knowing* that the vast > majority of scripts in the wild no longer expect Python 2 to come from > that command. That=E2=80=99s unknowable. We have no idea what people do with any = package of Debian outside of the archive. We can=E2=80=99t even = quantify what =E2=80=9Cvast=E2=80=9D means. So under the above = definition, you=E2=80=99re right, that day will never come. > That day might never come, in which case the =E2=80=98python=E2=80=99 = command will > forever mean Python 2. That is, I'm saying, better than breaking that > command in the near or medium future. I wonder if you=E2=80=99ll say the same thing in 2030 when Python 2.7 is = 10 years dead, can literally cannot be built on any then-modern Debian, = let alone Linux distro? That=E2=80=99s not hyperbole; one of the current = upstream exceptions to the 2.7 branch is to adapt to newer build systems = and library versions. That will stop in 2020, but of course everything = else will continue to evolve. It might even come sooner. Once Python 2.7 is EOL=E2=80=99d, it won=E2=80= =99t even get source releases, and may not even get security releases. = If folks want to keep it alive, it=E2=80=99ll take active downstream = resources to maintain. People may pay for commercial support from = RedHat, Canonical, and others, but how much will volunteers want to keep = it secure and working? I can remember when =E2=80=98python=E2=80=99 meant Python 1.5.2. So = that name doesn=E2=80=99t have to be tied to a specific major version. > I'm saying it's a bad idea for =E2=80=98python=E2=80=99 tomorrow to = get an incompatible > intepreter that won't run the same Python code. That interpreter is > named =E2=80=98python3=E2=80=99 and should never be installed as = =E2=80=98python=E2=80=99, because > =E2=80=98python=E2=80=99 is a command that many scripts expect to = invoke Python 2. Sure, today. And tomorrow. And many tomorrows until at least 2020. = Then I think we=E2=80=99ll be having very different conversations about = it. Anybody who will still be running Python 2.7 code will have some = difficult choices to make. 1) port to Python 3; 2) run old versions of = distros that still have Python 2.7 around and live with the unsupported = nature of it; 3) roll their own Python 2.7s; 4) pay some commercial = vendors to keep their stuff alive and secure. IMHO, there will absolutely be a day when it makes no sense to point = /usr/bin/python to Python 2. Cheers, -Barry --Apple-Mail=_B4F30A13-5E83-4570-89D8-3C861CF8336A Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEhBcVftvnPZ6sHlObEm61Y6dLBr8FAlmJGZsACgkQEm61Y6dL Br90Pw/8CROOMZI89b84/LSYIngkiJ+o3aCqcXEzgvPgDGJp+zS8gPGP7APTi1lJ 7qN0V8VAE+dwyaH0P9DfAhKuTz2qIQW6NHVoZIlWtXBVozl3II6jVPWBEPIOCrgs tvwJCFVa53ve9rO+FuYfuDv+csutRUMVSUUGhLXwOqg31rnq0mue2ZzDpYK69ZLy nEkF8n+GOgRdtUtsJ2Iz/aLB9IZ6TqAWgFJgBnUeclxlHH0RZXOya/0Xt+uIFP2G Kklsif2RBh1SawZLcupu0C2ZfSHga4YkJ64/zwircgkHxJddUChVe+Rw03Lgr+vy IqNnrC9MZWCNhG5+JWva/QoQQvVDrDAccBvF1YQO3pNaeju2+C/O+jwJ7zUiWsmN 2b+dcARh+gNsk6SM8nrGdMCuzdggtH3J+AUwmp1nPzMAlGKSgYk38X/90GyyJqAn sUPwQESK+m6uk/D5v0xS7bT4HGF+huEwSQtDagWK0ps1OflZ057yr1yv0q3Reijl IZcROYMsrhqazEhlKOstrIhYh4BKKpWJhFlDlLRLJN6ChfMLlXHg+m1gYpo3VQ90 edDcBXd0AERj8CJ9P3DNsz5CvPOsYn/qtOLuYYNCfKWBHSCWYr+OQEbZOJiIiXNH kSLCy3nZqtG7aoBqWHCNEaeyKpXYin1gMqsdVSmoNC6HYZPquhg= =gbpE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_B4F30A13-5E83-4570-89D8-3C861CF8336A--