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From: Julien Palard <julien@palard.fr>
Newsgroups: linux.debian.maint.python
Subject: Re: upstream python concerns, python3-full package for bullseye
Date: Fri, 12 Feb 2021 14:10:02 +0100
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Hi,

As far as I understand, the divergence between "Python upstream" and=20
Debian is:

- It looks like Debian target users consuming software, users just=20
install a package and it works, no venv needed obviously, it always just=20
work, it's fantastic. Users may not even care if the program is written=20
in Python or not at this point.

- Upstream Python is obviously composed by people writing in Python and=20
know many people who write some Python too: all in need of venv to work.

> Also, it's a disservice to push our users into the direction of using
> venv which is very ugly way to use Python in a Debian system
I do agree, we could even replace Python with software in this sentence.

And I don't think we're pushing our users to always install things in=20
venvs. Providing venv is not a big signal for Debian users to ask them=20
to use it to install packages (if a signal at all).

With my "I do write things in Python that may run on non-Debian systems"=20
hat, and "I teach Python" (most of them not using Debian) hat, a venv is=20
helping me in many many ways, it's literally part of my daily routine:

- It allows me to pin a set of dependencies and sub-dependencies to an=20
exact version (I do use pip-compile, from pip-tools), per project, that=20
I can use in automatic tests (ensuring if tests passes today, they'll=20
pass tomorrow), I can share this set with coworkers and future me ("if=20
it works for me, it works for you"), note my coworkers may not use=20
Debian at all.

- It allows me to easily replace a dependency with a modified one to=20
test it, or make anyone else test it (for example [1]).

- It allows me to work on my Debian testing laptop on code aimed to work=20
on Debian stable, or a completly different OS.

- It allows me to work on various projects with a different set of=20
incompatible dependencies.

So while I do agree that a *normal user* does not need a venv as I=20
myself appreciate, as a user, how fantastic it is to be able to install=20
a software using Debian packages, I still think venv is a very usefull=20
tool that I'm very happy to have in the Python stdlib and use daily.

(My current use of Python on Debian is: compile it myself, I need=20
multiple versions of Python for test purposes anyway.)

[1]: https://github.com/PyCQA/pylint/pull/3890#issuecomment-727591305

P.S.: If you still feel I'm completly wrong to use venv and pip in my=20
workflow, I'll be very happy to learn better ways.
--=20
[Julien Palard](https://mdk.fr)