Path: csiph.com!4.us.feeder.erje.net!3.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!news.szaf.org!news.unit0.net!news.mixmin.net!aioe.org!bofh.it!news.nic.it!robomod From: Paul Tagliamonte Newsgroups: linux.debian.maint.python Subject: Re: packaging DiscoDOS - a cli tool for vinyl DJs Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 14:30:02 +0200 Message-ID: References: X-Mailbox-Line: From debian-python-request@lists.debian.org Sat May 16 12:27:09 2020 Old-Return-Path: X-Amavis-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.397 tagged_above=-10000 required=5.3 tests=[BAYES_00=-2, FOURLA=0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.25, LDO_WHITELIST=-5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Policyd-Weight: NOT_IN_SBL_XBL_SPAMHAUS=-1.5 CL_IP_EQ_HELO_IP=-2 (check from: .gmail. - helo: .mail-qt1-f196.google. - helo-domain: .google.) FROM/MX_MATCHES_HELO(DOMAIN)=-2; rate: -5.5 X-Google-Dkim-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=MAwyALNwwA7ZxEeFI8T/j5Ozp8EfjaW8u5NfJBIxiJY=; b=bzoxdCEbmDSc5/mBu4cazq46H/7zlj26YXurNnfOluYuMzYExkkpZhdDb1dnYU1Nma WSM9SsUpWz3EH0agfvfCeQ7L1WX+Yup+pSIBrfY2VM3FCLh1Ozzix8BmQwId9hCV6N5v MBGrN71L4D1CDr+flOf3vzVo9GDt6bP4A17wSu1MjljyDgtvzSMWtoVcNJp/GyRKynJT d2Vl3AoS9nuK8GlQWhrubl5JQELiYaraR85LkJjyD6b0i4jw420TTAxXtagIAEMrYIGX ligTzLuDdCb4NcPFIUA6P1iBT1CE6MczS1uBSU7qFXNPJ+f/fWJ+rOrUh1+S6N24noN0 U0jw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533HIa0eBsWDaLSxUCiYAbwZ+aSzqdppHAbEaxMzlwSjUeJczTZZ Mb/kzmV8rF2z48JJqsvCjLMrpYhYIdtxKwugZio= X-Google-SMTP-Source: ABdhPJwpeQo86LGb2s5dUuGfOaMlCuTs3ZAFS0coORp+GoLCheOYkqwgw2G66yh+bJ60IN6KY+1w1353+R4mQOnGb0E= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:3032:: with SMTP id f47mr8068276qte.386.1589630997701; Sat, 16 May 2020 05:09:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/18299 List-ID: List-URL: List-Archive: https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/CAO6P2QRSHh46oLVwbEKUF+s7P-LRrzv64xk7WbGt0rdubkwa4g@mail.gmail.com Approved: robomod@news.nic.it Lines: 86 Organization: linux.* mail to news gateway Sender: robomod@news.nic.it X-Original-Cc: debian-python X-Original-Date: Sat, 16 May 2020 08:09:46 -0400 X-Original-Message-ID: X-Original-References: <632c8798-9b3c-197f-2680-a31553a4e091@debian.org> Xref: csiph.com linux.debian.maint.python:12598 This is very frustrating to read. On Sat, May 16, 2020 at 6:04 AM Thomas Goirand wrote: > > On 5/16/20 3:36 AM, Paul Wise wrote: > > Would it be fair to say that your main objection is that Ubuntu has > > much higher popularity than Debian > > This is what I regret, indeed. It's been like that for many years, and > the trend isn't reversing. We should ask ourselves why. From my point of > view, I see it as a problem of marketing more than OS content or > technical excellence. No, I think they do things better. Their installer is much better, and it's a *lot* easier to switch. They had signed UEFI images before us, and they enable things like firmware for wifi cards. This allows Ubuntu to be easier for non-technical users to install computers without understanding main vs contrib vs nonfree, how to disable SecureBoot or what a firmware package is. We have lessons to learn about usability and we've not learned them, and remained stubborn about it. They're able to do a lot of this by focusing on just a few arches, and not every arch under the sun. To some degree, we (as Debian) are designed to enable projects like Ubuntu more than ever become Ubuntu. > > and so the Ubuntu policy to work > > upstream where possible leads people to come to Debian without > > necessarily caring about the Debian community or users but more about > > Ubuntu users? > > We are lucky this happens. No, it's explicit messaging by Ubuntu. I was an Ubuntu member before I was a Debian Developer. I'd like to think I've been a stable and long-time member of the community. I am only here because of Ubuntu. If someone tries to upload a NEW package, they're always told to go to Debian. > > > Personally, I think over the years Ubuntu's Debian involvement has > > been a net positive for Debian > > Indeed. > > > both in terms of packaging and other > > technical changes and in terms of attracting new contributors, often > > Ubuntu migrants end up contributing to Debian more than Ubuntu. I > > think the same goes for derivatives in general. > > That's truth. I am very thankful for Canonical to contribute things like > Grub, Python, MySQL and many other things directly in Debian. It's very > nice that some full time employees can take care of stuff like that. > It's also nice that some components are explicitly worked on to be the > same in both distros. I also like the fact that they push contributors > to work on upstream Debian. > > Never the less, I've seen multiple occurrences where some people vaguely > knew what Ubuntu was, but never heard of Debian. Saw others saying wrong > things, like Ubuntu was updating faster (which is wrong, as packages are > updated in Sid first). And many other things of that type. Isn't it > legitimate that I'm asking myself why? Shouldn't the Debian project try > to question its image? Let's fix our usability issues and maybe more "power users" will install Debian. > > Cheers, > > Thomas Goirand (zigo) > -- All programmers are playwrights, and all computers are lousy actors. #define sizeof(x) rand() :wq -- :wq