Path: csiph.com!newsfeed.hal-mli.net!feeder3.hal-mli.net!newsfeed.hal-mli.net!feeder1.hal-mli.net!peer01.iad.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!post01.iad.highwinds-media.com!fx29.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Arved Sandstrom User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer Subject: Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? References: <52a5b585$0$2906$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl> <52a66a58$0$296$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> <52ace3fe$0$297$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> In-Reply-To: <52ace3fe$0$297$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 43 Message-ID: X-Complaints-To: abuse@newsgroups-download.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 20:58:58 UTC Organization: Public Usenet Newsgroup Access Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 16:58:57 -0400 X-Received-Bytes: 3058 X-Received-Body-CRC: 123550018 Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.java.programmer:26937 On 12/14/2013 07:04 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote: > On 12/10/2013 11:47 AM, Arved Sandstrom wrote: >> On 12/10/2013 11:07 AM, Stefan Ram wrote: >>> Moreover, today, applications often read user input via a GUI >>> but only very rarely from a console. (I do not deem command-line >>> arguments to be reading from a console here). >> >> I agree that console input for general app users is now uncommon. I also >> agree that CLI args (CLI invocation for that matter) is not reading from >> a console. >> >> I'd say this though, are you trying to teach users of applications, or >> writers of applications? If someone who intends to be a software >> developer can't get console input, they are toast. For that matter, I've >> worked with corporate and government _user_ teams in just the last few >> years that were still quite comfortable with green-screen type console >> input apps, and with quite a few user teams that loathed - and were >> adversely impacted by - badly designed GUIs (whether smartphone, desktop >> or web app). > > Basic OS understanding, being able to navigate command line / shell, > install and troubleshoot server applications are necessary to become > good developers. > > But that is not the same as making it part of or a prerequisite for > a basic programming course. > > Basic course should focus on a specific topic and then later the > students can try and make a whole out of all the small fragments. > > Arne Basic OS understanding had best be part of a first programming course, IMO. As for command line/shell, I wouldn't belabour it - not much point in turning your novices into Powershell or bash experts in the first semester - but if it's simply pitched as a method of I/O, I can't see how it interferes more than teaching a GUI. AHS -- When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift