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From: Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer,comp.lang.php
Subject: Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints.
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 12:47:34 -0500
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On 12/30/2013 12:32 PM, The well-known TROLL Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 12/30/2013 8:04 AM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>> On 12/29/2013 10:46 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 12/22/2013 4:34 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>> On 12/22/2013 4:20 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>> On 12/22/2013 4:09 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/22/2013 4:04 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12/22/2013 3:47 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 12/22/2013 3:38 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 12/22/2013 3:17 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 12/22/2013 2:05 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Hey everyone,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> This is cross-posted to cl.java.programmer and cl.php.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various
>>>>>>>>>>> ORMs,
>>>>>>>>>>> both positive and negative.  I find that I often stretch
>>>>>>>>>>> systems to
>>>>>>>>>>> there limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to
>>>>>>>>>>> solve
>>>>>>>>>>> problems that I've always felt should have been solved by the
>>>>>>>>>>> core
>>>>>>>>>>> libraries.  Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core
>>>>>>>>>>> business code.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm curious if others' have found the same things I have, or if
>>>>>>>>>>> they've
>>>>>>>>>>> been satisfied doing things other ways, and if so what ORMs they
>>>>>>>>>>> use.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I've had experience with the following Java ORMs:
>>>>>>>>>>>     * Hibernate (version 3, using Annotations for instance)
>>>>>>>>>>>     * Ibatis (many years ago, don't remember the version. around
>>>>>>>>>>> 2006)
>>>>>>>>>>>     * Straight JDBC.  Not exactly an ORM :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And then one non-Java ORM: Doctrine, which is modeled after
>>>>>>>>>>> Hibernate,
>>>>>>>>>>> including most of its flaws, but missing some of its features.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> So, my question to the groups, what ORMs have you used, and what
>>>>>>>>>>> did
>>>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>>>> like and hate about each of them?  I'm not trying to start a
>>>>>>>>>>> flame
>>>>>>>>>>> war,
>>>>>>>>>>> so please keep it to personal experiences with projects which
>>>>>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm interested in use-cases from simple small one-off
>>>>>>>>>>> applications to
>>>>>>>>>>> complex enterprise-level systems, and highly-scalable systems.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Please include details like "it's easier to maintain <x> type of
>>>>>>>>>>> changes
>>>>>>>>>>> with our approach, but <y> is very difficult" etc...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Is there a PHP question in there?  I don't see one...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Doctrine is PHP. And the question is open ended so other PHP
>>>>>>>>> ORM's could be included in discussion.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I still don't see a PHP question here.  I see some product
>>>>>>>> questions -
>>>>>>>> which would be better suited in a newsgroup for those applications.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just because something uses PHP does not mean it is appropriate
>>>>>>>> for a
>>>>>>>> PHP language newsgroup.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But I know some people don't believe in segregation of newsgroups
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> think anything should be able to be asked in any newsgroup.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ORM's are not applications. They are libraries.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And since it is question asking for comparison, then a group
>>>>>>> for a specific library is not a good choice.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Instead a group with people with experience and interest in
>>>>>>> different ways of database access from PHP is needed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> comp.lang.php does not seem that far fetched.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Obviously comp.lang.php.databaseaccess or
>>>>>>> comp.lang.php.databaseaccess.orm
>>>>>>> would be even better if such exists.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, an ORM-related newsgroup would be more appropriate.  There you
>>>>>> have
>>>>>> people who know the advantages and disadvantages of various ORM's.
>>>>>
>>>>> ORM's are language specific. So it would need to be a PHP ORM group
>>>>> to cover PHP.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does one exist?
>>>>>
>>>>>> Few, if any, in the language-related newsgroups will have used an
>>>>>> ORM,
>>>>>> and if they have, they have very limited experience.
>>>>>
>>>>> That depends on the language.
>>>>>
>>>>> In languages like Java and C# it would be >90% that have used an ORM.
>>>>>
>>>>> It is probably much less in PHP as ORM's are not as widely used
>>>>> in the PHP world.
>>>>>
>>>>> But I suspect that Daniel even may be interested in knowing more
>>>>> about why it is so.
>>>>
>>>> If you want, you can talk all you want about it in c.l.j.p.  But this
>>>> does not belong in c.l.p.
>>>
>>> So you keep saying.
>>>
>>> But just saying it does not make it correct.
>>>
>>> I just googled and found the original comp.lang.php charter
>>> from 2002.
>>>
>>> I says:
>>>
>>> "Since database connectivity is a large part of PHP, it will
>>> be considered topical in comp.lang.php."
>>>
>>> Unless you have changed the charter since then (Google can not
>>> find that, but that does not prove that it does not exist), then
>>> that means that ORM in PHP is on topic for comp.lang.php.
>>
>> ORM is not database connectivity.
>
> If it is what the PHP code is using to access the database, then
> it is providing database connectivity.
>
>>                                   But you're too stoopid to understand
>> the difference.
>
> Name calling is not a very convincing argumentation.
>
> Arne
>
>
>
>
>

The truth hurts, doesn't it?


-- 
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================