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From: Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer,comp.lang.php
Subject: Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints.
Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 08:04:05 -0500
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On 12/29/2013 10:46 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 12/22/2013 4:34 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>> On 12/22/2013 4:20 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 12/22/2013 4:09 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>> On 12/22/2013 4:04 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>> On 12/22/2013 3:47 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/22/2013 3:38 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12/22/2013 3:17 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 12/22/2013 2:05 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hey everyone,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This is cross-posted to cl.java.programmer and cl.php.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various
>>>>>>>>> ORMs,
>>>>>>>>> both positive and negative.  I find that I often stretch
>>>>>>>>> systems to
>>>>>>>>> there limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to solve
>>>>>>>>> problems that I've always felt should have been solved by the core
>>>>>>>>> libraries.  Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core
>>>>>>>>> business code.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm curious if others' have found the same things I have, or if
>>>>>>>>> they've
>>>>>>>>> been satisfied doing things other ways, and if so what ORMs they
>>>>>>>>> use.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've had experience with the following Java ORMs:
>>>>>>>>>     * Hibernate (version 3, using Annotations for instance)
>>>>>>>>>     * Ibatis (many years ago, don't remember the version. around
>>>>>>>>> 2006)
>>>>>>>>>     * Straight JDBC.  Not exactly an ORM :-)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And then one non-Java ORM: Doctrine, which is modeled after
>>>>>>>>> Hibernate,
>>>>>>>>> including most of its flaws, but missing some of its features.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> So, my question to the groups, what ORMs have you used, and what
>>>>>>>>> did
>>>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>>>> like and hate about each of them?  I'm not trying to start a flame
>>>>>>>>> war,
>>>>>>>>> so please keep it to personal experiences with projects which used
>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm interested in use-cases from simple small one-off
>>>>>>>>> applications to
>>>>>>>>> complex enterprise-level systems, and highly-scalable systems.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Please include details like "it's easier to maintain <x> type of
>>>>>>>>> changes
>>>>>>>>> with our approach, but <y> is very difficult" etc...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Is there a PHP question in there?  I don't see one...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Doctrine is PHP. And the question is open ended so other PHP
>>>>>>> ORM's could be included in discussion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I still don't see a PHP question here.  I see some product
>>>>>> questions -
>>>>>> which would be better suited in a newsgroup for those applications.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just because something uses PHP does not mean it is appropriate for a
>>>>>> PHP language newsgroup.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But I know some people don't believe in segregation of newsgroups and
>>>>>> think anything should be able to be asked in any newsgroup.
>>>>>
>>>>> ORM's are not applications. They are libraries.
>>>>>
>>>>> And since it is question asking for comparison, then a group
>>>>> for a specific library is not a good choice.
>>>>>
>>>>> Instead a group with people with experience and interest in
>>>>> different ways of database access from PHP is needed.
>>>>>
>>>>> comp.lang.php does not seem that far fetched.
>>>>>
>>>>> Obviously comp.lang.php.databaseaccess or
>>>>> comp.lang.php.databaseaccess.orm
>>>>> would be even better if such exists.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, an ORM-related newsgroup would be more appropriate.  There you
>>>> have
>>>> people who know the advantages and disadvantages of various ORM's.
>>>
>>> ORM's are language specific. So it would need to be a PHP ORM group
>>> to cover PHP.
>>>
>>> Does one exist?
>>>
>>>> Few, if any, in the language-related newsgroups will have used an ORM,
>>>> and if they have, they have very limited experience.
>>>
>>> That depends on the language.
>>>
>>> In languages like Java and C# it would be >90% that have used an ORM.
>>>
>>> It is probably much less in PHP as ORM's are not as widely used
>>> in the PHP world.
>>>
>>> But I suspect that Daniel even may be interested in knowing more
>>> about why it is so.
>>
>> If you want, you can talk all you want about it in c.l.j.p.  But this
>> does not belong in c.l.p.
>
> So you keep saying.
>
> But just saying it does not make it correct.
>
> I just googled and found the original comp.lang.php charter
> from 2002.
>
> I says:
>
> "Since database connectivity is a large part of PHP, it will
> be considered topical in comp.lang.php."
>
> Unless you have changed the charter since then (Google can not
> find that, but that does not prove that it does not exist), then
> that means that ORM in PHP is on topic for comp.lang.php.
>
> Arne
>
>
>
>

ORM is not database connectivity.  But you're too stoopid to understand 
the difference.  Just like some other Java programmers.


-- 
==================
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Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================