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From: Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer,comp.lang.php
Subject: Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints.
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Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 16:34:38 -0500
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On 12/22/2013 4:20 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 12/22/2013 4:09 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>> On 12/22/2013 4:04 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 12/22/2013 3:47 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>> On 12/22/2013 3:38 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>> On 12/22/2013 3:17 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>>>> On 12/22/2013 2:05 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote:
>>>>>>> Hey everyone,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This is cross-posted to cl.java.programmer and cl.php.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various
>>>>>>> ORMs,
>>>>>>> both positive and negative.  I find that I often stretch systems to
>>>>>>> there limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to solve
>>>>>>> problems that I've always felt should have been solved by the core
>>>>>>> libraries.  Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core
>>>>>>> business code.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm curious if others' have found the same things I have, or if
>>>>>>> they've
>>>>>>> been satisfied doing things other ways, and if so what ORMs they
>>>>>>> use.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've had experience with the following Java ORMs:
>>>>>>>     * Hibernate (version 3, using Annotations for instance)
>>>>>>>     * Ibatis (many years ago, don't remember the version. around
>>>>>>> 2006)
>>>>>>>     * Straight JDBC.  Not exactly an ORM :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And then one non-Java ORM: Doctrine, which is modeled after
>>>>>>> Hibernate,
>>>>>>> including most of its flaws, but missing some of its features.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So, my question to the groups, what ORMs have you used, and what did
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> like and hate about each of them?  I'm not trying to start a flame
>>>>>>> war,
>>>>>>> so please keep it to personal experiences with projects which used
>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm interested in use-cases from simple small one-off
>>>>>>> applications to
>>>>>>> complex enterprise-level systems, and highly-scalable systems.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please include details like "it's easier to maintain <x> type of
>>>>>>> changes
>>>>>>> with our approach, but <y> is very difficult" etc...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Is there a PHP question in there?  I don't see one...
>>>>>
>>>>> Doctrine is PHP. And the question is open ended so other PHP
>>>>> ORM's could be included in discussion.
>>>>
>>>> I still don't see a PHP question here.  I see some product questions -
>>>> which would be better suited in a newsgroup for those applications.
>>>>
>>>> Just because something uses PHP does not mean it is appropriate for a
>>>> PHP language newsgroup.
>>>>
>>>> But I know some people don't believe in segregation of newsgroups and
>>>> think anything should be able to be asked in any newsgroup.
>>>
>>> ORM's are not applications. They are libraries.
>>>
>>> And since it is question asking for comparison, then a group
>>> for a specific library is not a good choice.
>>>
>>> Instead a group with people with experience and interest in
>>> different ways of database access from PHP is needed.
>>>
>>> comp.lang.php does not seem that far fetched.
>>>
>>> Obviously comp.lang.php.databaseaccess or
>>> comp.lang.php.databaseaccess.orm
>>> would be even better if such exists.
>>
>> Yes, an ORM-related newsgroup would be more appropriate.  There you have
>> people who know the advantages and disadvantages of various ORM's.
>
> ORM's are language specific. So it would need to be a PHP ORM group
> to cover PHP.
>
> Does one exist?
>
>> Few, if any, in the language-related newsgroups will have used an ORM,
>> and if they have, they have very limited experience.
>
> That depends on the language.
>
> In languages like Java and C# it would be >90% that have used an ORM.
>
> It is probably much less in PHP as ORM's are not as widely used
> in the PHP world.
>
> But I suspect that Daniel even may be interested in knowing more
> about why it is so.
>
> Arne
>

If you want, you can talk all you want about it in c.l.j.p.  But this 
does not belong in c.l.p.

FUP set to c.l.j.p only.


-- 
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================