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From: Jerry Stuckle <jstucklex@attglobal.net>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer,comp.lang.php
Subject: Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints.
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2013 16:09:09 -0500
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On 12/22/2013 4:04 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 12/22/2013 3:47 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>> On 12/22/2013 3:38 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 12/22/2013 3:17 PM, Jerry Stuckle wrote:
>>>> On 12/22/2013 2:05 PM, Daniel Pitts wrote:
>>>>> Hey everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>> This is cross-posted to cl.java.programmer and cl.php.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've been doing some thinking about my experiences with various ORMs,
>>>>> both positive and negative.  I find that I often stretch systems to
>>>>> there limits, and end up doing a lot of meta-programming to solve
>>>>> problems that I've always felt should have been solved by the core
>>>>> libraries.  Mostly to follow DRY and KISS principals in the core
>>>>> business code.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm curious if others' have found the same things I have, or if
>>>>> they've
>>>>> been satisfied doing things other ways, and if so what ORMs they use.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've had experience with the following Java ORMs:
>>>>>     * Hibernate (version 3, using Annotations for instance)
>>>>>     * Ibatis (many years ago, don't remember the version. around 2006)
>>>>>     * Straight JDBC.  Not exactly an ORM :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> And then one non-Java ORM: Doctrine, which is modeled after Hibernate,
>>>>> including most of its flaws, but missing some of its features.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So, my question to the groups, what ORMs have you used, and what did
>>>>> you
>>>>> like and hate about each of them?  I'm not trying to start a flame
>>>>> war,
>>>>> so please keep it to personal experiences with projects which used
>>>>> them.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm interested in use-cases from simple small one-off applications to
>>>>> complex enterprise-level systems, and highly-scalable systems.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please include details like "it's easier to maintain <x> type of
>>>>> changes
>>>>> with our approach, but <y> is very difficult" etc...
>>>>
>>>> Is there a PHP question in there?  I don't see one...
>>>
>>> Doctrine is PHP. And the question is open ended so other PHP
>>> ORM's could be included in discussion.
>>
>> I still don't see a PHP question here.  I see some product questions -
>> which would be better suited in a newsgroup for those applications.
>>
>> Just because something uses PHP does not mean it is appropriate for a
>> PHP language newsgroup.
>>
>> But I know some people don't believe in segregation of newsgroups and
>> think anything should be able to be asked in any newsgroup.
>
> ORM's are not applications. They are libraries.
>
> And since it is question asking for comparison, then a group
> for a specific library is not a good choice.
>
> Instead a group with people with experience and interest in
> different ways of database access from PHP is needed.
>
> comp.lang.php does not seem that far fetched.
>
> Obviously comp.lang.php.databaseaccess or comp.lang.php.databaseaccess.orm
> would be even better if such exists.
>
> Arne
>

Yes, an ORM-related newsgroup would be more appropriate.  There you have 
people who know the advantages and disadvantages of various ORM's.

Few, if any, in the language-related newsgroups will have used an ORM, 
and if they have, they have very limited experience.

But as I said - some people think any question can be asked in any 
newsgroup, no matter how thin the connection.  But others prefer to 
direct people to appropriate newsgroups, where they will get GOOD 
answers from knowledgeable people.

-- 
==================
Remove the "x" from my email address
Jerry Stuckle
JDS Computer Training Corp.
jstucklex@attglobal.net
==================