Path: csiph.com!v102.xanadu-bbs.net!xanadu-bbs.net!feeder.erje.net!eu.feeder.erje.net!eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Jeff Higgins Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer Subject: Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 16:36:38 -0500 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 49 Message-ID: References: <52a5b585$0$2906$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl> <52a66a58$0$296$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> <52ace3fe$0$297$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 21:38:07 +0000 (UTC) Injection-Info: mx05.eternal-september.org; posting-host="6b9e92482af47766954d85fb77d372f5"; logging-data="17143"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX1/JVjjGCHAALNHXCRJLg8mRTo+DtVf2Jtw=" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20131103 Icedove/17.0.10 In-Reply-To: Cancel-Lock: sha1:E+GxHx58TAmSp45PWhPFHNROb0E= Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.java.programmer:26939 On 12/15/2013 03:58 PM, Arved Sandstrom wrote: > On 12/14/2013 07:04 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> On 12/10/2013 11:47 AM, Arved Sandstrom wrote: >>> On 12/10/2013 11:07 AM, Stefan Ram wrote: >>>> Moreover, today, applications often read user input via a GUI >>>> but only very rarely from a console. (I do not deem command-line >>>> arguments to be reading from a console here). >>> >>> I agree that console input for general app users is now uncommon. I also >>> agree that CLI args (CLI invocation for that matter) is not reading from >>> a console. >>> >>> I'd say this though, are you trying to teach users of applications, or >>> writers of applications? If someone who intends to be a software >>> developer can't get console input, they are toast. For that matter, I've >>> worked with corporate and government _user_ teams in just the last few >>> years that were still quite comfortable with green-screen type console >>> input apps, and with quite a few user teams that loathed - and were >>> adversely impacted by - badly designed GUIs (whether smartphone, desktop >>> or web app). >> >> Basic OS understanding, being able to navigate command line / shell, >> install and troubleshoot server applications are necessary to become >> good developers. >> >> But that is not the same as making it part of or a prerequisite for >> a basic programming course. >> >> Basic course should focus on a specific topic and then later the >> students can try and make a whole out of all the small fragments. >> >> Arne > > Basic OS understanding had best be part of a first programming course, > IMO. As for command line/shell, I wouldn't belabour it - not much point > in turning your novices into Powershell or bash experts in the first > semester - but if it's simply pitched as a method of I/O, I can't see > how it interferes more than teaching a GUI. > > AHS I keep reading this thread and wondering where Stefan Ram and his students fit into . Adult students. Perhaps they all have the core of _CSTA K-12 2011_ and are heading toward one of the "five defined sub-disciplines of computing" in _Computing Curricula 2005: The Overview Report_.