NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 04:55:34 -0600 Date: Sun, 15 Dec 2013 10:55:34 +0000 From: lipska the kat <"lipskathekat at yahoo dot co dot uk"> Organization: Trollbusters 3 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:17.0) Gecko/20130308 Thunderbird/17.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer Subject: Re: Teaching Java, teaching what? References: <52a5b585$0$2906$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl> <52a5df22$0$2920$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl> <52a66816$0$296$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> <52a6f363$0$2880$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl> <52acfec0$0$301$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> <52ad84a0$0$2926$e4fe514c@news2.news.xs4all.nl> In-Reply-To: <52ad84a0$0$2926$e4fe514c@news2.news.xs4all.nl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: Lines: 71 X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com X-AuthenticatedUsername: NoAuthUser X-Trace: sv3-puhGezEsri7lpZ0amSFaM/1IEOgkgbkbWJkxwLwLKXY7KJtt+AGiQWHld5d56t92HHa09ZWDfKlNI5a!J2pUGiplnNJmpqQxjb22CA5IdnI4yYeHB4dI0KVG0q3IzslHc6anZhMfq8GnvLiZhQmTa6ZvXOtG X-Complaints-To: abuse@btinternet.com X-DMCA-Complaints-To: abuse@btinternet.com X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.40 X-Original-Bytes: 4242 Path: csiph.com!usenet.pasdenom.info!news.stben.net!border3.nntp.ams.giganews.com!Xl.tags.giganews.com!border1.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local2.nntp.ams.giganews.com!nntp.bt.com!news.bt.com.POSTED!not-for-mail Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.java.programmer:26921 On 15/12/13 10:29, Silvio wrote: > On 12/15/2013 01:58 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote: >> On 12/10/2013 5:56 AM, Silvio wrote: >>> On 12/10/2013 02:02 AM, Arne Vajhøj wrote: >>>> And web is often less OO than desktop apps, which may move >>>> focus from the purpose of the course. >>> >>> I usually get nervous twitches when people start saying something is >>> more or less OO. There is no such thing as general OO-ness >> >> Unless you will claim that there is only two possible >> states non-OO and OO, then something can be more or less >> OO than something else. >> >>> and saying >>> that web is less OO than desktop is complete nonsense. >> >> Calling something nonsense is not a very convincing argument. >> >> Try instead of writing an application able to add two integers >> and display the result in Swing, Struts 1.x and JSF - and count >> number of occurrences of inheritance, polymorphism and encapsulation >> for each compare dto number of lines written. >> >> I think you will find that Swing has a lot of OO features, while >> Struts 1.x and JSF are more multi-paradigm oriented, which means >> less OO. >> >>> An entry level course usually focuses on general stuff like classes, >>> instances, encapsulation and methods. I personally think command line >>> test code is best suited there since it distracts the least from the >>> main topics. >>> >>> Swing brings an enormous amount of extra logic into the picture. Apart >>> from the fact that you have to discuss components and hierarchies, >> >> But that is exactly what you would want to discuss in an OO course. >> >>> graphics, >> >> Don't need that for a basic Swing app. >> >>> layout managers, >> >> There will be a bit of black magic with that, but it is nothing compared >> to CSS. >> >>> event handling etc. >> >> That is very OOish. >> >>> it has a dirty API that >>> brings along a zillion names, adapters, patterns etc. >> >> You can do basic Swing with a modest number of classes. >> >> Arne >> > > Components and event handling have nothing to do with "OO". You can do > both in a procedural style. In fact, in the early days of event driven > user interfaces it was mostly done in C in a very procedural way. I've discovered that it's not really worth arguing with Arne about OO. He doesn't really 'get it'. But kudos for trying. -- Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer, treacherous feline and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun GNU/Linux user #560883 - http://www.linuxcounter.net