Path: csiph.com!v102.xanadu-bbs.net!xanadu-bbs.net!news.glorb.com!peer02.iad.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!post02.iad.highwinds-media.com!fx14.iad.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Arved Sandstrom User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.lang.java.programmer,comp.lang.php Subject: Re: ORMs comparisons/complaints. References: <%JGtu.29103$Wm1.26832@fx17.iad> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 49 Message-ID: <82Hwu.135723$DB4.62783@fx14.iad> X-Complaints-To: abuse@newsgroups-download.com NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 21:54:12 UTC Organization: Public Usenet Newsgroup Access Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 17:54:12 -0400 X-Received-Bytes: 2813 X-Received-Body-CRC: 2501537891 Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.java.programmer:27156 comp.lang.php:12469 On 12/31/2013 12:52 PM, jebblue wrote: > On Sun, 22 Dec 2013 11:05:34 -0800, Daniel Pitts wrote: > >> I find that I often stretch systems to there >> limits > > It should be their not there. > > ORM's are great to get something fairly simple of the ground > fairly fast. From then on any meaningful feature updates > that requires work in the data layer makes using an ORM > a real PITA. > > Things like, slow performance, hassles when trying to relate > data between tables, trying to sort out what I want the > SQL to do then all the time it takes to sort out all the > ORM annotations and code and test to satisfy the ORM makes > using the ORM a maintenance headache. > > It's a slower coding startup to use straight JDBC but over > time maintenance time and difficulty are linear conststant > with using straight JDBC. Performance is always at a > maximum too. > > So when I can, I avoid ORMs completely. > Have you worked in the programming industry for more than say 5 years? No point you made actually made much sense. I must admit, I've heard a few guys just 3 years out of uni who style themselves as technical architects or senior consultants who opine like this. Your observations wrt JDBC vs use of an ORM are not borne out by experience. A fair few knowledgeable people have decided that Java ORMs make sense: I happen to believe that they are correct - ORMs are complex, and JDBC is more complex, and not very many coders are truly adept at SQL. And "performance is always at a maximum"? JDBC versus ORMs? How so? Just about 99 percent of the people who write Java ORMs are intimately familiar with JDBC and SQL - I happen to know a few of them. I respectfully suggest that if you're having performance problems or can't solve relational calculus, it's not an ORM problem. AHS -- When a true genius appears, you can know him by this sign: that all the dunces are in a confederacy against him. -- Jonathan Swift