Path: csiph.com!v102.xanadu-bbs.net!xanadu-bbs.net!feeder.erje.net!eu.feeder.erje.net!newsfeed.datemas.de!rt.uk.eu.org!aioe.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: "Rod Pemberton" Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth Subject: Re: Forth for education Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 09:41:23 -0400 Organization: Aioe.org NNTP Server Lines: 52 Message-ID: References: <0d34c96e-d56b-4d85-85f3-7379a3a1eb72@googlegroups.com> <5235eb3d.280545989@news.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: CNsg4fVcCsvs3UaOgZtQCw.user.speranza.aioe.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@aioe.org User-Agent: Opera Mail/12.16 (Linux) X-Notice: Filtered by postfilter v. 0.8.2 Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.forth:25761 On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 03:57:19 -0400, Andrew Haley wrote: > Rod Pemberton wrote: >> Sigh, here we go again... >> >> Every time I mention lack of syntax or language structure in Forth, >> I get ripped. A short while later someone who programs in Forth >> cites the exact issue by example. This time it happened to be Hugh. >> Are you guys doing this intentionally or just for "fun"? Can you >> truly be so blissfully unaware of the issue that you don't realize >> it even when you explicitly complain about it? > > How can you say we're unaware of it? We know Forth very well. The > argument is whether the lack of, say, syntax is a bug or a feature. > If it's frequently complained about, wouldn't that make it a bug? If it's easy to misuse, wouldn't that make it a source of bugs? > And of course you get ripped. Your idea of a good way to [spend] your > time is to come to a Forth newsgroup and tell everyone how crap Forth > is. What did you expect? > Don't you think four decades of conversation on what's the best way to implement control-flow in Forth is enough? When it's not how to implement control-flow, it's how to use DOES> ... Etc., Forth is cryptic, Forth has no syntax. Don't you think that having the same conversations over and over are indicative of the truth? I.e., a problem exists with such issues or people wouldn't be wasting their time initiating discussion on them in the first place. The dismissiveness of those adept in Forth doesn't change that reality. E.g., when was the last time you heard a C programmer discussing new control-flow techniques? (never) When was the last time you heard of many C programmers discussing how to use the same specific function in the C library because they have problems with it? (never) One apparent difference in the C community and the Forth community is that the C community will openly state that something is a problem, has been, and is unlikely to be fixed. Next, they will tell you how to avoid the problem, if you desire to. OTH, the Forth community seems to be in denial or willfully blind by stating that problems which are repeatedly cited by both novices and adept Forth programmers aren't really a problem. If it's not a problem, why is there so much conversation on it? Rod Pemberton