Path: csiph.com!newsfeed.hal-mli.net!feeder3.hal-mli.net!newsfeed.hal-mli.net!feeder1.hal-mli.net!peer03.iad.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!border3.nntp.dca.giganews.com!Xl.tags.giganews.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local2.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.supernews.com!news.supernews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 13:37:55 -0600 Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2014 09:37:54 -1000 From: "Elizabeth D. Rather" Reply-To: erather@forth.com Organization: FORTH, Inc. User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.7; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.lang.forth Subject: Re: Forth reinvention References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-ID: Lines: 66 X-Trace: sv3-mODIInCaGBFsi7/Ddy6Gvkj5Ph/KYUYWorcUKgJ36QqJ8+Nt/5odrNc5tSF32TSnDSkNkdgchF2r6xn!9jq4SvzRWKdn4MW74lsTLFvkugUXZSXjWlE+vGFpasMKe/em7F6GF1+7tlcf/JJt3HwsJVt9uk2b!uATC2ZshDQ== X-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/abuse.html X-DMCA-Complaints-To: www.supernews.com/docs/dmca.html X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.40 X-Original-Bytes: 4885 X-Received-Bytes: 5026 X-Received-Body-CRC: 2809431384 Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.forth:28616 On 2/19/14 11:19 PM, dambere@web.de wrote: > With regard to the discussion in 'Forth in oblivion', I have specifically asked the question what properties a Forth successor should have ? > > I think important are the following aspects: > > - switch to infix notation: > Personally I found RPN an elegant, mathematical notation both solving inconsistencies of traditional infix notations and ease parsing. However, in general people have an innate aversion to the adoption of unorthodox concepts nor are people able to think in abstract terms of implementation efficiency. For these psychological reasons, a RPN based programming language can hardly interest a wider audience without constraint, especially since most programmers these days are already grown with quite different (and much more complex) languages compared to Forth. RPN is way overstated as an impediment to Forth, because it's an obvious feature that's easy to point to. But I really don't think it's a serious impediment. Many, many people in addition to you have learned to manage *postfix* notation and found it elegant and efficient. As Hans so succinctly said, stacks are used in many compilers. By exposing them (and other internal features) Forth puts more power in the hands of programmers. That's a good thing. > - Automatic parallelization: > The trend goes to multi core architectures. A programming language that is relieving the programmer from the not inconsiderable task of paralleling programs will necessarily be attractive. Parallelization is an implementation strategy, not a language feature. > - Lack of leadership: > To my knowledge, there exist no central leadership with financial impact to promote Forth by all means. This must change. > Now you're close to the mark. The reason that Forth hasn't received more notice in the world is largely due to the fact that none of its developers or supporters has had the financial or institutional backing necessary to publicize it widely or give it the public visibility needed to generate a following. FORTH, Inc. FIG, MPE, and others have tried, but without way more significant budgets small businesses or interest groups have no leverage. How many of you who are using Forth in professional projects are reporting on your work in journals, magazines, or general computing conferences? If you don't do this, how is anyone to know? Did the Forth 200x group send press releases regarding the Forth2012 public review? Did they follow up with prominent magazines or web sites to ensure the notice was published? The fact is, Forth has undergone a constant process of reinvention ever since Chuck's first publications in the 70's. Major improvements have been made in features (multitasking, data base support, graphics) by vendors, and Forth94 generated immense breakthroughs in implementation strategies such as sophisticated cross-compilers and optimizing compilers. The innovations have been undertaken primarily by people who are *using* the language in real-world applications, and therefore respond to actual programmer needs, rather than perceptions. 21st C Forth is a far better language than it was in the 80's or 90's. Cheers, Elizabeth -- ================================================== Elizabeth D. Rather (US & Canada) 800-55-FORTH FORTH Inc. +1 310.999.6784 5959 West Century Blvd. Suite 700 Los Angeles, CA 90045 http://www.forth.com "Forth-based products and Services for real-time applications since 1973." ==================================================