Path: csiph.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail From: Maximus Newsgroups: sci.physics.relativity,sci.physics,alt.atheism Subject: Re: Atheism is a belief, it's not a science. Date: Sat, 4 May 2024 12:21:19 +1000 Lines: 223 Message-ID: References: <07v03j96gcmt89d6d7j7ae62e5cb5qkagu@4ax.com> <45o13jlkp7rsi2kkqsbtnpmmci33f7j544@4ax.com> <4rf23j54ji8pup1lm5opc3enb1ggep0dh2@4ax.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: individual.net JPKIhYCC2D3MVs8tju+9ow6wpZSJJ0bA5TePC1xGDfFavTG/ij Cancel-Lock: sha1:Bp2IDNYbgfVDYlL4O4sua61wZKk= sha256:w2WWKWl+S62NsevHfKNujH8lO/ffTM+ZQHY9UNNUejY= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/91.0 SeaMonkey/2.53.18.2 In-Reply-To: Xref: csiph.com sci.physics.relativity:653384 sci.physics:887194 alt.atheism:3371240 Attila wrote: > On Fri, 3 May 2024 22:42:31 +1000, Maximus > in alt.atheism with message-id > wrote: > >> Attila wrote: >>> On Thu, 2 May 2024 10:34:33 +1000, Maximus >>> in alt.atheism with message-id >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Attila wrote: >>>>> On Wed, 1 May 2024 01:01:01 +1000, Maximus >>>>> in alt.atheism with message-id >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Attila wrote: >>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 22:57:53 +1000, Maximus >>>>>>> in alt.atheism with message-id >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Attila wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 21:43:47 +1000, Maximus >>>>>>>>> in alt.atheism with message-id >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Attila wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 18:18:28 +1000, Maximus >>>>>>>>>>> in alt.atheism with message-id >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Attila wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 11:59:25 +1000, Maximus >>>>>>>>>>>>> in alt.atheism with message-id >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Attila wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Apr 2024 21:38:00 -0700, The Starmaker >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in alt.atheism with message-id >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <662F2428.72E6@ix.netcom.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Starmaker wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Atheism is a belief, it's not a science. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Religious beliefs and Atheism beliefs are both on the same level of ...beliefs. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Atheist are confident that there is no God, as Religions are confident that there is a God. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They are are both on the same level of ...beliefs. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not really. Theists postulate the existence of something >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> without any supporting evidence for that existence. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I disagree. billions of believers and personal testimony is evidence. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Personal testimony is never evidence >>>>>>>>>>>> any court would disagree with you >>>>>>>>>>> It is well known that personal testimony is the poorest kind >>>>>>>>>>> of evidence. >>>>>>>>>> maybe, but still evidence. and it's relative to numbers. if twenty pp >>>>>>>>>> say they saw me run down a pedestrian in my car, that carries more >>>>>>>>>> weight than if just one person says it. >>>>>>>>> I agree - it is evidence. It just isn't very useful >>>>>>>>> evidence. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The value of eyewitnesses: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubNF9QNEQLA >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahg6qcgoay4 >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bnnmWYI0lM >>>>>>>>>> I'm not going to watch all those, sorry. (see comment below) >>>>>>>>> Any one will do. They all show what you see may not be >>>>>>>>> reality. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> since there is no way >>>>>>>>>>>>> to support it. >>>>>>>>>>>>> As far as the "belief of billions" is >>>>>>>>>>>>> concerned there are hundreds of different beliefs in there >>>>>>>>>>>>> and they can't all be correct. >>>>>>>>>>>> I was referring to Xtianity and Islam primarily >>>>>>>>>>> How about Hindu? >>>>>>>>>> about 1.2 billion. but Christians and Islamists make up over 50% of all >>>>>>>>>> religious faiths. >>>>>>>>> So what? That doesn't mean any of them are valid. >>>>>>>> no, but your point is there's no evidence. I say it's evidence the >>>>>>>> beliefs could be valid. >>>>>>> Or not. There is no actual evidence that would convince >>>>>>> someone either way. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> There are hundreds of others. In fact >>>>>>>>>>> there are many, many different Christian beliefs. >>>>>>>>>> yes. I'm just saying it's not as you say that there's no evidence. for >>>>>>>>>> example believers spend a lot of money in support of their faith. just >>>>>>>>>> near where I am there's a 7th day Adventist complex worth many millions >>>>>>>>>> of dollars. also many intelligent ppl have religious beliefs. in fact >>>>>>>>>> theists vastly outnumber us. you can't just dismiss such things as being >>>>>>>>>> no evidence that there may be some validity to their beliefs. >>>>>>>>> Or not. There is exactly the same support either way. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> but at the >>>>>>>>>> end of the day, I look at what the beliefs actually are. when one does >>>>>>>>>> that, it's not so difficult to dismiss them as nonsense. eg. xtians >>>>>>>>>> believe they will live in mansions, and walk on streets paved with gold >>>>>>>>>> in some god adoring afterlife, and muslims believe they will get 70 >>>>>>>>>> virgins if they die as martyrs. >>>>>>>>> Most religions have common factors - rewards for believers >>>>>>>>> and painful punishment for non-believers. >>>>>>>>> Basically there is no actual supporting evidence either way >>>>>>>>> for anything involving religion. That is why faith was >>>>>>>>> invented. Faith is belief without evidence - for those who >>>>>>>>> believe in such. >>>>>>>> no, faith is belief without proof >>>>>>> Proof - evidence - either way it is the same thing. No >>>>>>> facts. >>>>>> no. evidence is not proof. evidence is just something that supports a >>>>>> conclusion. >>>>> True, but usually evidence has some validity factor. >>>>> >>>>> Just what is evidence is usually left to the judgment of the >>>>> parties involved, which makes unsupported evidence useless. >>>>> Meaningful evidence is unambiguous, unrelated, verifiable >>>>> and credible. >>>>> >>>> unsupported evidence is not useless. all evidence is evaluated on it's >>>> credibility. if there's a murder and I say I saw it happen, but no one >>>> else did, that still needs to be investigated. >>> True but without corroboration there would be little result. >>> >>>>>>> A fact is a statement that can be verified. It can be proven >>>>>>> to be true or false through objective evidence. No religion >>>>>>> has this. >>>>>> yes they do. Muhammad is an historical person, as is Jesus >>>>> Absolutely correct but there is no unambiguous, unrelated, >>>>> verifiable and credible evidence that they were any >>>>> different from any John Doe off any street. >>>> the impact they had on the world suggests otherwise >>> Ra and Osiris had a similar impact on their world. >>> >>>>> Simply >>>>> accepting (or proving) someone with that name existed at a >>>>> certain time and place proves nothing. >>>>> >>>>> There is no independent and unrelated supporting evidence. >>>>>>>> . the gospels for example are a basis >>>>>>>> for Xtian faith >>>>>>> Or for any other religion. None of them have anything >>>>>>> beyond faith. Your gospels are accepted as being true >>>>>>> without any supporting evidence. >>>>>> the gospels are evidence for the events they contain >>>>> Your acceptance of them as evidence does nothing to actually >>>>> validate them >>>> nevertheless they are still evidence for what they contain. your claim >>>> is there's no evidence for religious belief, not that there's no proof. >>>> just as sporting organizations, clubs, and participants are evidence for >>>> their sport, ie. that the sport exists, Churches and Mosques and the >>>> believers (billions of them) are evidence for their God. ie. that the >>>> God exists, or there wouldn't be any Churches or Mosques. to me this >>>> seem obvious. >>> Nonsense. Evidence without factual support is about as >>> useless as can be imagined. >>> >>> "Oh, look! A pile of poop! That proves there is a god!" >>> "Oh, look! A rock! That proves there is a god!" >>> "Oh, look! A bug! That proves there is a god!" >>> "Oh, look! A ham sandwich! That proves there is a god!" >>> >>> Take your pick. For some that is all the evidence that is >>> needed. >>> >>>>> Such validation requires unambiguous, >>>>> unrelated, verifiable and credible evidence, >>>>> >>>>>> it's irrelevant >>>>>> whether those events are true or not. they are still evidence. but some >>>>>> things in the gospels are known to be factual. Bart Ehrman is a (very) >>>>>> good authority on this. >>>>> Nothing beyond some physical locations and independently >>>>> verified historical figures. None of the mystical or >>>>> supernatural claims are independently supported. >>>> yes >>> Therefore belief or non-belief can be as simple as flipping >>> a coin. >> of course ppl can believe or not, as with anything, like UFO's, or >> Bigfoot, or whatever >> >>> Except belief under these conditions also requires >>> belief in anything including vampires, elves, giants, >>> dragons, werewolves, and shape shifters. >>> >> that's a stupid argument. belief in some thing doesn't create any >> obligation to believe in some other thing. >> > True, but how can defend not believing in something when the > evidence supporting something you do believe in is exactly > the same in either case? > > Such a selection would be the definition of arbitrary. everything is considered on it's merits. there seems to be credible evidence for believing in UFO's, werewolves not so much. > > -- > > -- “Atheism is the birth right of all human, remember that!”- hhyapster 7.4.23 "Christian beliefs fail against reason, facts, and knowledge" "Religion is not about truth, it's about lifestyle" "God is a convenient explanation for what man does not understand. The less that's inexplicable, the less need for a 'God' explanation." "The problem with theism is that it never remains within the realm of belief, but invariably proceeds to assertion"