Path: csiph.com!weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!fu-berlin.de!bofh.it!news.nic.it!robomod From: ben0i0d Newsgroups: linux.debian.maint.python Subject: Re: Involving free-threaded Python in Debian (Was: Free-threaded python3.13t packaging in Debian?) Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2025 09:50:01 +0100 Message-ID: References: X-Mailbox-Line: From debian-python-request@lists.debian.org Tue Nov 4 08:40:03 2025 Old-Return-Path: X-Amavis-Spam-Status: No, score=0.045 tagged_above=-10000 required=5.3 tests=[BAYES_00=-2, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FORGED_MUA_MOZILLA=2.309, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=1.951, HTML_MESSAGE=2, LDO_WHITELIST=-5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_RPBL_BLOCKED=0.001, RCVD_IN_VALIDITY_SAFE_BLOCKED=0.001, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.982] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no X-Policyd-Weight: NOT_IN_SBL_XBL_SPAMHAUS=-1.5 CL_IP_EQ_HELO_IP=-2 (check from: .foxmail. - helo: .out203-205-221-192.mail.qq. - helo-domain: .qq.) FROM/MX_MATCHES_HELO(DOMAIN)=-2; rate: -5.5 X-Qq-Mid: xmsmtpt1762243752tsnz9a73b X-Qq-Xmailinfo: OGr48utWQcJEC9sXDT/CKeEZHC7EWFjiK7GjH1QgIyyJ1c+FGupWpWKCawtmmg 4UZqjwx1R8PgRXuIJ/RritbGm4aSlc1scDP5Nziql9/TqyRhK5AGP6rJynguTfMqVwAO/26dh0X5 OQYtMDA4V4m0TTJou4FUweA9Cw4NZ+GwocOWsBKcDntQ1EhQqqgl4CJ9M4eAwaR2g3cGFUGPCSja v5EZmnmx2TSuYka5/XESnBQlkyIRutkRcUGETfKso2EiK5dnQ0AQoWH/OEj45XXbfPVrX7OilcK+ p0u6F012ew6n14cb5CgbJ+4K12tbTllPZDuf2cEYA0u3SEhtxJa2ugIpl1xV5DGqdprZYB039KJg a4kxP4iZy6x6xAffxzDiXppB/+xPGB/hSSHCtwq2uiOpqEqAHAaZX+PPhDyHJxUjcNqrh4H7MTC5 /NHa/216RyLPGz8kfhgVyiYf6/hHbvUW78nSAk5VjBzZHZ4c5HZS6Qc77p91nvtbqNf/GVRe1I5D v8BlxDKx24ND+ApV6yXs6a64WTbfV4OaqKJWFkmK0fq2NlxViBqK5kxliX4GtFkKknao/UDPboLT LOytPSUR7tjGM/pOCkwgotkWmZpeqC8oGDeFicLS/PjXmmOAFNvbCWZbGeZ3TqGYCgx/xWiCMFm2 jLX4Eypd7bgq8Mgj7auiZFkdg3k3GAsuLko2nng9Y8WCXDIYnh6n/08IiFO1tDbN3xB/+po0ZCpi 8SMvE9t+wQbP8CNYS4U6L9Si2ruuR9ulMGBM+l9Jz5gY9XO/j7wrIWtKiIgQT5U83wMYIr7BtlmG 4eTrxfSx5hKsnRVamU8jfLyDbxKwd0l2ht2U8ohYZiD6/pliUAqdCBGL/Iz1rLeN70T1MbOhvCei QSDtZMJntDMlsAoa7mFoUqjsmZda4++bu4G4oMkmWbiNRLpqcK71bseiwxpjj9fH9w1o6B2IUNlt AmiByQbSUGAlR4W1MueilKoHxwDaHcryCemHc0rA3UoN50UgA01/i8MkPYzttQUFngVl2DhWs+YF gUrry4TYvENeQzt0K9C8Jfl4zaBCxfyEK34AV673kDbCcYrOs1hMb4QrEiHQw= X-Qq-Xmrinfo: OWPUhxQsoeAVDbp3OJHYyFg= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------5cKdB33eGTzC4pGAsDDkurfw" X-Oq-Msgid: <93a758d9-5e38-43c3-9741-c200da1ba5e5@foxmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Content-Language: en-US X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/23324 List-ID: List-URL: List-Archive: https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/tencent_281F50EFC0E1EC2DC3084074148A56004E0A@qq.com Approved: robomod@news.nic.it Lines: 141 Organization: linux.* mail to news gateway Sender: robomod@news.nic.it X-Original-Cc: stefanor@debian.org X-Original-Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2025 16:09:11 +0800 X-Original-Message-ID: X-Original-References: <3D4BF25C-7BC7-4DC3-8E3E-20D35A0BF4B7@outlook.com> <3054600.mvXUDI8C0e@galatea> Xref: csiph.com linux.debian.maint.python:17124 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------5cKdB33eGTzC4pGAsDDkurfw Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Thanks for the invitation. I would like to briefly summarize the results of my previous communication with Stefano and the current status of my work. Here are the repositories I have been working on. I have completed the build and testing of python3.14t and python3t. An experimental repository is also under my account: https://salsa.debian.org/ben0i0d/python3t https://salsa.debian.org/ben0i0d/python3t-defaults In my previous work, I enabled |nogil| and the |t| flag to ensure that python3t is completely isolated from the existing Python line. That is, python3t/3.14t follows the “B” technical route. I isolated their |dist-packages|. (However, note that since I haven’t adapted pip packages yet, the current venv does not work properly, though manual pip installation works fine.) When I communicated with Stefano via email, he agreed with the idea of using a suffix and nogil, but suggested two corrections: 1. We cannot split out a separate python3t source package. The builds must produce two parallel interpreters from the existing CPython team packages (of course, they are isolated, including |/usr/lib|, i.e., the standard library is isolated). 2. |dist-packages| should not be isolated. This way, we only need to focus on the porting, and if issues arise, venv can be used as a transition. I agree with this view, and this is what I am currently doing—choosing option (a). Regarding GIL vs. nogil, pure Python modules are usually not a problem, e.g., pip. The challenge lies in Python packages with C extensions. From my perspective, under option (a), the main issue only occurs when mixing GIL and nogil. Perhaps we should first introduce the nogil interpreter into Debian as a base, like Fedora, which could also bring nogil support to Ubuntu 26.04. As for adapting modules for nogil, I don’t have a good solution yet. This problem will need to be discussed by the community, and I have not conducted tests or developed feasible approaches for mixed usage so far. Ideally, I plan to complete option (a) within two weeks, i.e., finish the rules modifications and submit them. At that time, I will carry out this part of the investigation. Best regards, *Xu Chen (ben0i0d)* ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 在 2025/11/4 15:28, Chen Shengqi 写道: > Xu Chen mentioned that he had some previous email with Stefanor, so I'm looping > him into this thread. --------------5cKdB33eGTzC4pGAsDDkurfw Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Thanks for the invitation. I would like to briefly summarize the results of my previous communication with Stefano and the current status of my work.

Here are the repositories I have been working on. I have completed the build and testing of python3.14t and python3t. An experimental repository is also under my account:
https://salsa.debian.org/ben0i0d/python3t
https://salsa.debian.org/ben0i0d/python3t-defaults

In my previous work, I enabled nogil and the t flag to ensure that python3t is completely isolated from the existing Python line. That is, python3t/3.14t follows the “B” technical route. I isolated their dist-packages. (However, note that since I haven’t adapted pip packages yet, the current venv does not work properly, though manual pip installation works fine.)

When I communicated with Stefano via email, he agreed with the idea of using a suffix and nogil, but suggested two corrections:

  1. We cannot split out a separate python3t source package. The builds must produce two parallel interpreters from the existing CPython team packages (of course, they are isolated, including /usr/lib, i.e., the standard library is isolated).

  2. dist-packages should not be isolated. This way, we only need to focus on the porting, and if issues arise, venv can be used as a transition.

I agree with this view, and this is what I am currently doing—choosing option (a).

Regarding GIL vs. nogil, pure Python modules are usually not a problem, e.g., pip. The challenge lies in Python packages with C extensions.

From my perspective, under option (a), the main issue only occurs when mixing GIL and nogil. Perhaps we should first introduce the nogil interpreter into Debian as a base, like Fedora, which could also bring nogil support to Ubuntu 26.04.

As for adapting modules for nogil, I don’t have a good solution yet. This problem will need to be discussed by the community, and I have not conducted tests or developed feasible approaches for mixed usage so far.

Ideally, I plan to complete option (a) within two weeks, i.e., finish the rules modifications and submit them.

At that time, I will carry out this part of the investigation.

Best regards,
Xu Chen (ben0i0d)

在 2025/11/4 15:28, Chen Shengqi 写道: 
Xu Chen mentioned that he had some previous email with Stefanor, so I'm looping
him into this thread.
--------------5cKdB33eGTzC4pGAsDDkurfw--