Path: csiph.com!weretis.net!feeder9.news.weretis.net!feeder8.news.weretis.net!fu-berlin.de!bofh.it!news.nic.it!robomod From: Paul Boddie Newsgroups: linux.debian.maint.python Subject: Re: python devs complaining about debian packaging Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2024 00:20:01 +0200 Message-ID: References: X-Mailbox-Line: From debian-python-request@lists.debian.org Sun Jun 2 22:17:34 2024 Old-Return-Path: X-Amavis-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.02 tagged_above=-10000 required=5.3 tests=[BAYES_00=-2, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FOURLA=0.1, LDO_WHITELIST=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, URIBL_SBL_A=0.1] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Policyd-Weight: using cached result; rate: -5.5 X-Greylist: delayed 527 seconds by postgrey-1.36 at bendel; Sun, 02 Jun 2024 22:17:18 UTC MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/21920 List-ID: List-URL: List-Archive: https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/1931743.FO0DkmMPlE@jason Approved: robomod@news.nic.it Lines: 90 Organization: linux.* mail to news gateway Sender: robomod@news.nic.it X-Original-Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2024 00:08:22 +0200 X-Original-Message-ID: <1931743.FO0DkmMPlE@jason> X-Original-References: <2901031.mvXUDI8C0e@galatea> <483CE406-1FE1-4B24-97D8-B3D1092B086E@kitterman.com> Xref: csiph.com linux.debian.maint.python:15889 On Monday, 27 May 2024 04:07:34 CEST Scott Kitterman wrote: >=20 > While there are technical concerns on both sides, socially I think the > Python community isn't that interested in outside perspectives. I managed to dig up these notes from the packaging summit at PyCon: https://hackmd.io/@pradyunsg/pycon2024-pack-summit Here's the summit page itself: https://us.pycon.org/2024/events/packaging-summit/ There is some fixation on the "system Python" in distributions, and the=20 following remarks: "At least one distro team is working on moving their own Python out of the= =20 way, so users can install their own Python packages [...] Fedora tried=20 platform-python and it broke everything, so it didn't really work" Given the proliferation of "virtual environments" around Python, where you= =20 just pick your own Python version and accompanying packages, I find it odd= =20 that the Python packaging community gets so hung up on the system Python. D= o=20 they want it to just go away or not be on the path or something? Wouldn't=20 having a singular upstream Python just cause the same problems when someone= =20 finds that it isn't the version they need? =46or my own amusement and to confirm my own memories, I went back in time = to=20 check the Python Web site in the 1990s, and back then there was no problem = in=20 providing a binary for Linux and the Unix products of choice from that era.= =20 AIX, FreeBSD, HP-UX, Irix, OSF/1, Solaris, and SunOS 4, plus a Linux binary= =20 supplied either as an RPM or in a plain archive: https://web.archive.org/web/20021030010019/http://www.python.org/ftp/python/ binaries-1.4/ What is stopping anyone from doing that all over again? The user downloads = the=20 binary, puts it in their current directory, and runs their software. Could = it=20 be that the burden of support is perhaps a little greater than one might=20 expect? Because from that starting point, you have to build multiple versions, and= =20 then you have to build accompanying libraries, and then you have to support= =20 third-party packages which need third-party libraries. It wasn't a surprise= =20 that things like Sun Freeware (http://www.sunfreeware.com) emerged to cater= to=20 the proprietary platforms, whereas distributions emerged around Linux to=20 manage this complexity and provide all this software. It is easy for the various language communities to focus only on their own= =20 ecosystems, but everybody's software has to work together. And then there a= re=20 companies targeting various markets that demand software built on a selecti= on=20 of different technologies, so you get perspectives like these: "Why did the PyPI and Conda ecosystem get created? It was originally create= d=20 as an educational teaching language. If all of your tools are in Python, al= l=20 of the things in your ecosystem are supposed to work well together. However= ,=20 the tools that scientists and data scientists use are very commonly written= in=20 C, C++, etc. and so there=E2=80=99s something called a =E2=80=9Cnative bina= ry problem=E2=80=9D. Making=20 this stuff compatible across the board is an incredibly challenging issue!= =20 Conda was created to resolve those binary compatibility issues." I honestly don't know what these people think operating system distribution= s=20 are doing if not solving the "native binary problem". Paul