Path: csiph.com!fu-berlin.de!bofh.it!news.nic.it!robomod From: Stefano Rivera Newsgroups: linux.debian.maint.python Subject: Re: python devs complaining about debian packaging Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 15:40:01 +0200 Message-ID: References: X-Mailbox-Line: From debian-python-request@lists.debian.org Sun May 26 13:39:22 2024 Old-Return-Path: X-Amavis-Spam-Status: No, score=-107.1 tagged_above=-10000 required=5.3 tests=[BAYES_00=-2, DKIMWL_WL_HIGH=-1, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=1, LDO_WHITELIST=-5, USER_IN_DKIM_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Policyd-Weight: using cached result; rate: -4.6 Mail-Followup-To: debian-python@lists.debian.org X-Gpg-Public-Key: http://www.rivera.za.net/stefano.gpg MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: NeoMutt/20220429 X-Mailing-List: archive/latest/21903 List-ID: List-URL: List-Archive: https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/20240526133904.mx4loikydakvqaym@satie.tumbleweed.org.za Approved: robomod@news.nic.it Lines: 47 Organization: linux.* mail to news gateway Sender: robomod@news.nic.it X-Original-Date: Sun, 26 May 2024 13:39:04 +0000 X-Original-Message-ID: <20240526133904.mx4loikydakvqaym@satie.tumbleweed.org.za> X-Original-References: <2901031.mvXUDI8C0e@galatea> Xref: csiph.com linux.debian.maint.python:15873 Hi Ian (2024.05.26_01:33:09_+0000) > I am puzzled about some of the responses there, how can anyone expect to > randomly update packages on the system using pip and not have it go wrong > on any distribution? This is why things like pipenv exist. People don't understand that stuff until they dig to the details. And even then, sometimes they forget and/or assume we have the resources to massively revamp our stack. There are long-standing grievances here (see tiran's gist for example). I have very little experience with Fedora/RH, but from their grumbling, I assume they solve some problems for developers that we don't: 1. It appears that multiple versions of cPython are trivially available. Each version has its own site-packages. 2. Their python packaging is more developer-centric than user-centric. More modules included in the install. We're pretty constrained on 1 by the debian security team policy. But maybe there is discussion room there for non-supported Pythons? We have taken steps to improve 2 by adding the python3-full package. I could see a long term strategy for having a system-python package that provides a python3 binary used by Debian packages that need Python. And a separate python package for developers that installs all the bells and whistles immediately. Achieving this would require reorganizing the way we package almost all Python, and I don't think we have the interest and resources to do that. If pyenv was packaged in Debian (ITP #978149) it would probably be great for new Python developers on Debian. Not sure what other small tactical steps we could take? > > Perhaps someone else wants to comment on that conversation Replied. I've engaged with these guys on this stuff before. Let's see where it goes... Stefano -- Stefano Rivera http://tumbleweed.org.za/ +1 415 683 3272