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Re: kotlin2 in Debian -- 2025W23 update

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Hi Emmanuel,

Le 2025-06-16 15:45, Emmanuel Bourg a écrit :
> On 07/06/2025 19:14, Julien Plissonneau Duquène wrote:
> 
>> A significant difference with the current Kotlin package is that I'm 
>> planning to remove (if possible) all embedded copies of libraries. 
>> This will require to patch some of them that were forked by JetBrains 
>> to fix or add features.
> 
> I'm not sure this is a good idea, because it diverges from upstream, 
> increases the maintenance burden, and could potentially break kotlin if 
> such a dependency gets broken and can no longer compile (due to kotlin 
> being broken). For kotlin I'd recommend keeping it simple and sticking 
> to the upstream layout as much as possible. Saving a few kilobytes 
> isn't important here.

I think it would actually be easier terms of maintenance, space savings 
are definitely not the reason behind that move. I would worry more about 
the risks of breaking a shared dependency used elsewhere by patching it 
for kotlin.

The alternatives here are to either embed the dependencies in the kotlin 
package (which is the way it's currently done), or package the JetBrains 
forks separately.

Embedding the dependencies means that the compiler package has to be 
rebuilt at least twice after patching a dependency: a first time to 
build an updated package with the old package, then a second time to 
rebuild the compiler with a compiler that uses the updated dependency. 
And if there is kotlin-specific patching involved of that dependency, 
the source package would become multi-tarball again. All these make the 
package maintenance more complicated and brittle, e.g. if someone else 
updates an embedded dependency package but forgets to (test-)rebuild the 
compiler twice afterwards, it might fail to build later at an 
inconvenient time.

Packaging the JetBrains forks separately avoids the issues above, but 
still adds to maintenance burden as now the forked package has to be 
maintained in addition to the mainstream package. In most cases the 
duplication would make no sense IMO. I will consider it though if there 
is no reasonable way to make the regular dependency package useable with 
kotlin (by patching either the dependency and/or kotlin).

Diverging from upstream is not ideal, but there is such a gap in 
policies and goals between the binary releases from the upstream 
projects and Debian that it is completely unavoidable anyway. In several 
cases, upstream depends on older releases of libraries than those 
shipped in Debian, probably because they have to provide commercial 
support on older releases of IDE and tools. My plan is to use the 
upstream test suites to detect and mitigate issues that could be 
introduced by Debian divergences, and keep these to a minimum where it 
actually matters.

-- 
Julien Plissonneau Duquène

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gradle reboot Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2024-11-04 14:50 +0100
  Re: gradle reboot Jérôme Charaoui <jerome@riseup.net> - 2024-11-04 15:10 +0100
  Re: gradle reboot Toni Mueller <toni@debian.org> - 2024-11-04 17:00 +0100
    Re: gradle reboot sre4ever@free.fr - 2024-11-19 11:10 +0100
      Re: gradle reboot -- 2024W47 update sre4ever@free.fr - 2024-11-22 18:30 +0100
        Re: gradle reboot -- 2024W48 update sre4ever@free.fr - 2024-12-02 19:50 +0100
          Re: gradle reboot -- 2024W49 update sre4ever@free.fr - 2024-12-09 12:10 +0100
            Re: gradle reboot -- 2024W49 update Emmanuel Bourg <ebourg@apache.org> - 2024-12-09 14:40 +0100
              Re: gradle reboot -- 2024W49 update sre4ever@free.fr - 2024-12-09 19:00 +0100
                Re: gradle reboot -- 2024W49 update Hans-Christoph Steiner <hans@at.or.at> - 2024-12-09 19:20 +0100
                Re: gradle reboot -- 2024W49 update sre4ever@free.fr - 2024-12-10 10:40 +0100
                Re: gradle reboot -- 2024W49 update Matthias Klose <doko@debian.org> - 2024-12-14 10:50 +0100
                Re: gradle reboot -- 2024W49 update sre4ever@free.fr - 2024-12-14 11:50 +0100
                Re: gradle reboot -- 2024W49 update Matthias Klose <doko@debian.org> - 2024-12-14 13:20 +0100
            Re: gradle reboot -- 2024W50 update sre4ever@free.fr - 2024-12-13 19:40 +0100
              Re: gradle reboot -- 2024W50 update Emmanuel Bourg <ebourg@apache.org> - 2024-12-14 00:40 +0100
              gradle: FI -- reverse dependencies that FTBFS sre4ever@free.fr - 2024-12-17 12:00 +0100
                Re: gradle: FI -- reverse dependencies that FTBFS Emmanuel Bourg <ebourg@apache.org> - 2024-12-18 10:00 +0100
              Re: gradle reboot -- 2024W51 update Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2024-12-20 19:20 +0100
                Re: gradle reboot -- 2025W02 update Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-01-10 19:30 +0100
                Re: gradle reboot -- 2025W03 update Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-01-17 19:30 +0100
                Re: gradle reboot -- 2025W04 update Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-01-24 19:20 +0100
                Re: gradle reboot -- 2025W04 update Hans-Christoph Steiner <hans@at.or.at> - 2025-01-27 17:10 +0100
                Re: gradle reboot -- 2025W04 update Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-01-27 19:30 +0100
                Re: gradle reboot -- 2025W05 update Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-01-31 19:10 +0100
                gradle reboot -- 2025W06 update Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-02-07 19:50 +0100
                gradle reboot -- 2025W07 update Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-02-14 20:10 +0100
                Re: gradle reboot -- 2025W07 update Hans-Christoph Steiner <hans@at.or.at> - 2025-02-19 08:00 +0100
                Re: gradle reboot -- 2025W07 update Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-02-19 09:50 +0100
                gradle reboot -- 2025W08 update Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-02-21 18:20 +0100
                gradle reboot -- 2025W09 update Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-02-28 20:30 +0100
                gradle reboot -- 2025W10 update Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-03-07 18:50 +0100
                Re: gradle reboot -- 2025W10 update Emmanuel Bourg <ebourg@apache.org> - 2025-03-10 18:50 +0100
                Re: gradle reboot -- 2025W10 update Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-03-10 19:10 +0100
                gradle reboot -- 2025W11 update Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-03-14 19:50 +0100
                gradle reboot -- 2025W12 update Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-03-21 19:00 +0100
                kotlin2 in Debian -- 2025W13 update Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-03-28 20:00 +0100
                Re: kotlin2 in Debian -- 2025W13 update Emmanuel Bourg <ebourg@apache.org> - 2025-03-29 12:40 +0100
                Re: kotlin2 in Debian -- 2025W13 update Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-03-29 13:50 +0100
                kotlin2 in Debian -- 2025W14 update Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-04-04 21:00 +0200
                kotlin2 in Debian -- 2025W15 update Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-04-11 14:20 +0200
                kotlin2 in Debian -- 2025W16 update Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-04-18 19:50 +0200
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                Re: kotlin2 in Debian -- 2025W18 update Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-05-06 18:40 +0200
                kotlin2 in Debian -- 2025W19 update Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-05-09 22:20 +0200
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                kotlin2 in Debian -- 2025W24 update Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-06-14 19:10 +0200
                kotlin2 in Debian -- 2025W25 update Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-06-20 20:00 +0200
                Re: kotlin2 in Debian -- 2025W26 and W27 update Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-07-01 17:00 +0200
                kotlin2 in Debian -- 2025W28 to W30 update Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-07-27 23:00 +0200
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                kotlin2 in Debian -- 2025W35 update Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-09-01 21:30 +0200
                kotlin2 in Debian -- 2025W36 update Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-09-07 21:50 +0200
                kotlin2 in Debian -- 2025W37 update Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-09-15 14:30 +0200
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                Re: kotlin2 in Debian -- 2025W39-W41 update Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-10-12 23:10 +0200
                Re: kotlin2 in Debian -- 2025W39-W41 update Hans-Christoph Steiner <hans@at.or.at> - 2025-10-31 12:10 +0100
                Re: kotlin2 in Debian -- 2025W39-W41 update Bastien Roucaries <rouca@debian.org> - 2026-02-15 20:00 +0100
                Re: kotlin2 in Debian -- 2025W23 update Emmanuel Bourg <ebourg@apache.org> - 2025-06-16 15:50 +0200
                Re: kotlin2 in Debian -- 2025W23 update Julien Plissonneau Duquène <sre4ever@free.fr> - 2025-06-20 21:30 +0200
  Re: gradle reboot Emmanuel Bourg <ebourg@apache.org> - 2024-11-08 00:30 +0100
    Re: gradle reboot Hans-Christoph Steiner <hans@at.or.at> - 2024-11-26 13:40 +0100
      Re: gradle reboot sre4ever@free.fr - 2024-11-27 09:30 +0100

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