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Bug#1110221: release-notes: Desktop restarts during upgrade

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  Bug#1110221: release-notes: Desktop restarts during upgrade Guillermo Torres Zamora <guillermotorres1998@hotmail.es> - 2025-08-01 14:10 +0200
    Bug#1110221: release-notes: Desktop restarts during upgrade Justin B Rye <justin.byam.rye@gmail.com> - 2025-08-01 15:00 +0200
      Bug#1110221: release-notes: Desktop restarts during upgrade Guillermo Torres Zamora <torreszamoraguillermo@gmail.com> - 2025-08-01 17:40 +0200
        Bug#1110221: release-notes: Desktop restarts during upgrade Richard Lewis <richard.lewis.debian@googlemail.com> - 2025-08-02 16:10 +0200
          Bug#1110221: release-notes: Desktop restarts during upgrade Chris Hofstaedtler <zeha@debian.org> - 2025-08-02 17:20 +0200
            Bug#1110221: release-notes: Desktop restarts during upgrade Holger Wansing <hwansing@mailbox.org> - 2025-08-02 18:10 +0200
          Bug#1110221: release-notes: Desktop restarts during upgrade Justin B Rye <justin.byam.rye@gmail.com> - 2025-08-02 17:20 +0200
    Bug#1110221: release-notes: Desktop restarts during upgrade Holger Wansing <hwansing@mailbox.org> - 2025-08-03 09:40 +0200
    Re: Bug#1110221: release-notes: Desktop restarts during upgrade Richard Lewis <richard.lewis.debian@googlemail.com> - 2025-08-03 15:30 +0200

#7695 — Bug#1110221: release-notes: Desktop restarts during upgrade

Package: release-notes
Severity: minor
X-Debbugs-Cc: guillermotorres1998@hotmail.es

Dear Maintainer,

   * What led up to the situation?
I wanted to upgrade to Trixie.
   * What exactly did you do (or not do) that was effective (or
     ineffective)?
I run apt upgrade --without-new-pkgs
   * What was the outcome of this action?
The desktop restarted at the end closing everything but I was not warned in the release notes only in the terminal itself
   * What outcome did you expect instead?
Probably the same but with a warning in the release notes

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#7699

Guillermo Torres Zamora wrote:
> I run apt upgrade --without-new-pkgs
>
>    * What was the outcome of this action?
> The desktop restarted at the end closing everything but I was not
> warned in the release notes only in the terminal itself
>
>    * What outcome did you expect instead?
> Probably the same but with a warning in the release notes

This doesn't match what I've seen in any of my (unofficial) tests,
including the one where I was specifically checking for this on a
default GNOME-on-Wayland setup: the old session was left running while
I finished tidying up after the upgrade.  What desktop environment are
you talking about?  (And what "warning" did it give in the terminal?)

This can be triggered if you specifically tell needrestart to restart
processes that are usually left un-restarted, but the package
needrestart probably isn't even installed on your machine.
-- 
JBR	with qualifications in linguistics, experience as a Debian
	sysadmin, and probably no clue about this particular package

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#7705

On Fri, 1 Aug 2025 13:51:36 +0100 Justin B Rye 
<justin.byam.rye@gmail.com> wrote:
 > Guillermo Torres Zamora wrote:
 > > I run apt upgrade --without-new-pkgs
 > >
 > > * What was the outcome of this action?
 > > The desktop restarted at the end closing everything but I was not
 > > warned in the release notes only in the terminal itself
 > >
 > > * What outcome did you expect instead?
 > > Probably the same but with a warning in the release notes
 >
 > This doesn't match what I've seen in any of my (unofficial) tests,
 > including the one where I was specifically checking for this on a
 > default GNOME-on-Wayland setup: the old session was left running while
 > I finished tidying up after the upgrade. What desktop environment are
 > you talking about? (And what "warning" did it give in the terminal?)
 >
 > This can be triggered if you specifically tell needrestart to restart
 > processes that are usually left un-restarted, but the package
 > needrestart probably isn't even installed on your machine.
 > --
 > JBR with qualifications in linguistics, experience as a Debian
 > sysadmin, and probably no clue about this particular package
 >
 >

Cinnamon desktop on Xorg and I do have install needrestart, which I 
forgot about, so it's probably that.

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#7717

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Fri, 1 Aug 2025, 16:31 Guillermo Torres Zamora, <
torreszamoraguillermo@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 1 Aug 2025 13:51:36 +0100 Justin B Rye
> <justin.byam.rye@gmail.com> wrote:
>  > Guillermo Torres Zamora wrote:
>
>  > This can be triggered if you specifically tell needrestart to restart
>  > processes that are usually left un-restarted, but the package
>  > needrestart probably isn't even installed on your machine.
>


Cinnamon desktop on Xorg and I do have install needrestart, which I
> forgot about, so it's probably that.
>

should the release-notes tell people to do something to needrestart to
prevent this happening?  or is this a bug in needsrestart?

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#7719

On Sat, Aug 02, 2025 at 02:58:19PM +0100, Richard Lewis wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Aug 2025, 16:31 Guillermo Torres Zamora, <
> torreszamoraguillermo@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, 1 Aug 2025 13:51:36 +0100 Justin B Rye
> > <justin.byam.rye@gmail.com> wrote:
> >  > Guillermo Torres Zamora wrote:
> >
> >  > This can be triggered if you specifically tell needrestart to restart
> >  > processes that are usually left un-restarted, but the package
> >  > needrestart probably isn't even installed on your machine.
> >
> 
> 
> Cinnamon desktop on Xorg and I do have install needrestart, which I
> > forgot about, so it's probably that.
> >
> 
> should the release-notes tell people to do something to needrestart to
> prevent this happening?  or is this a bug in needsrestart?

needrestart in the default config prompts what should be restarted. 
I doubt intended behaviour of needrestart qualifies as a bug, and 
it's users need to remember they have it.

Chris

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#7723

Hi,

Am 2. August 2025 17:14:52 MESZ schrieb Chris Hofstaedtler <zeha@debian.org>:
>On Sat, Aug 02, 2025 at 02:58:19PM +0100, Richard Lewis wrote:
>> On Fri, 1 Aug 2025, 16:31 Guillermo Torres Zamora, <
>> torreszamoraguillermo@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> > On Fri, 1 Aug 2025 13:51:36 +0100 Justin B Rye
>> > <justin.byam.rye@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >  > Guillermo Torres Zamora wrote:
>> >
>> >  > This can be triggered if you specifically tell needrestart to restart
>> >  > processes that are usually left un-restarted, but the package
>> >  > needrestart probably isn't even installed on your machine.
>> >
>> 
>> 
>> Cinnamon desktop on Xorg and I do have install needrestart, which I
>> > forgot about, so it's probably that.
>> >
>> 
>> should the release-notes tell people to do something to needrestart to
>> prevent this happening?  or is this a bug in needsrestart?
>
>needrestart in the default config prompts what should be restarted. 
>I doubt intended behaviour of needrestart qualifies as a bug, and 
>it's users need to remember they have it.

At some time we had the recommendation, to start the upgrade from virtual console, not from X.
Maybe we need that to come back ....

I personally still do it like this.


Holger



-- 
Sent from /e/ OS on Fairphone3

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#7720

Richard Lewis wrote:
>>> This can be triggered if you specifically tell needrestart to restart
>>> processes that are usually left un-restarted, but the package
>>> needrestart probably isn't even installed on your machine.
>>
>> Cinnamon desktop on Xorg and I do have install needrestart, which I
>> forgot about, so it's probably that.
> 
> should the release-notes tell people to do something to needrestart to
> prevent this happening?  or is this a bug in needsrestart?

Needrestart _shouldn't_ do this - it maintains a blacklist of types of
service that shouldn't be automatically restarted, which includes
display managers and so on - but it does allow users to override that
blacklist.  It would be useful to know whether Guillermo accidentally
ordered it to shoot him in the foot*, or whether it's weirdly buggy
(you'd think this kind of issue would already have been reported), or
whether it's a complete red herring after all and something else went
wrong.

While I'm trying to imagine a way of testing it, we might as well also
be thinking about what we might say in the Release Notes if necessary.
We do after all have that systemd-run trick lying around if we need
an antidote to offer in section 4.1.5.

  Users running GNOME [does it matter whether it's on Wayland?  Might
  this also apply to KDE?] who have activated [needrestart,
  bootsniper-tng, GNOME killing-spree mode...] may wish to protect
  themselves against the possibility of an accidentally restarted user
  session by running the upgrade from `screen` or `tmux` within a
  `systemd-run` wrapper (e.g. `systemd-run --scope --user screen`).

Except I never did really understand how that interacts with GNOME
killing-spree mode, and now I can't find all the Salsa discussions
from back in March.

(* As in the old slogan "Debian GNU/Linux: giving you the power to
shoot yourself in each toe individually!")
-- 
JBR	with qualifications in linguistics, experience as a Debian
	sysadmin, and probably no clue about this particular package

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#7724

Hi Justin,

Am 3. August 2025 09:23:23 MESZ schrieb Justin B Rye <justin.byam.rye@gmail.com>:
>Holger Wansing wrote:
>>> needrestart in the default config prompts what should be restarted. 
>>> I doubt intended behaviour of needrestart qualifies as a bug, and 
>>> it's users need to remember they have it.
>> 
>> At some time we had the recommendation, to start the upgrade from virtual console, not from X.
>> Maybe we need that to come back ....
>> 
>> I personally still do it like this.
>
>Unfortunately if this was GNOME's killing-spree mode, being logged in
>"outside" the graphical session wouldn't help, because these days with
>desktop environment processes running as a big mess of independent
>services instead of all being children of a window manager, logind
>doesn't try to distinguish.  Under at least some circumstances (one of
>them being if the option KillUserProcesses is set to "Yes", which has
>at times been the upstream default), restarting GNOME sprays userspace
>with kill signals to ensure no VT logins or cronjobs or detached tmux
>sessions survive.

Wow, this is getting way to complicated for me.
I'm out here...

Holger

-- 
Sent from /e/ OS on Fairphone3

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#7725

Guillermo Torres Zamora <torreszamoraguillermo@gmail.com> writes:


> Yesterday, I think I just manually selected everything and shoot
> myself in the foot because I don't always know 100% what I'm doing or
> remember everything I have installed on my laptop.

It seems very unlikely you are the only one who forgets this -- it seems
odd to me that
https://www.debian.org/releases/trixie/release-notes/upgrading.html#prepare-a-safe-environment-for-the-upgrade

mentions watchdog daemons but not something aimed at desktop users.

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