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Gove in a virtual world

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  Gove in a virtual world ChrisF <c.n.l.f@virgin.net> - 2011-12-15 20:47 +0000
    Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-15 20:53 +0000
      Re: Gove in a virtual world Dave Symes <dave@triffid.co.uk> - 2011-12-15 21:06 +0000
        Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-15 22:19 +0000
          Re: Gove in a virtual world Dave Symes <dave@triffid.co.uk> - 2011-12-16 07:18 +0000
          Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-16 09:14 +0100
            Re: Gove in a virtual world charles <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> - 2011-12-16 09:34 +0000
            Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-16 10:46 +0000
              Re: Gove in a virtual world Russell Hafter News <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> - 2011-12-17 14:48 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 15:10 +0000
              Re: Gove in a virtual world Jess <phantasm_39@hotmail.com> - 2011-12-18 09:20 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-19 11:36 +0000
            Re: Gove in a virtual world jgharston <jgh@arcade.demon.co.uk> - 2011-12-16 07:04 -0800
              Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 08:46 +0100
          Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-16 11:07 +0000
            Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-16 13:44 +0000
              Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-16 17:02 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-16 19:20 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 10:17 +0100
                  Re: Gove in a virtual world "John Williams (News)" <UCEbin@tiscali.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 10:35 +0100
              Re: Gove in a virtual world Russell Hafter News <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> - 2011-12-17 14:57 +0000
            Re: Gove in a virtual world workstuff@mail.com - 2011-12-16 21:12 +0100
              Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-17 13:04 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Tim Hill <tim@invalid.org.uk> - 2011-12-18 07:50 +0000
                  Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-18 15:31 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world workstuff@mail.com - 2011-12-18 22:27 +0100
                  Re: Gove in a virtual world Patric Albutat <albutat@gmx.de> - 2011-12-19 01:32 +0100
                  Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-19 12:32 +0000
                    Re: Gove in a virtual world workstuff@mail.com - 2011-12-19 14:22 +0100
                    Re: Gove in a virtual world Russell Hafter News <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> - 2011-12-19 14:00 +0000
                      Re: Gove in a virtual world nervus <nervus@spam.nl> - 2011-12-19 19:59 +0100
                        Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-19 20:13 +0000
                          Re: Gove in a virtual world nervus <nervus@spam.nl> - 2011-12-19 21:35 +0100
                            Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-19 21:05 +0000
                              Re: Gove in a virtual world nervus <nervus@spam.nl> - 2011-12-19 22:10 +0100
                          Re: Gove in a virtual world Bryn Evans <d@a.invalid> - 2011-12-20 16:42 +0000
                      Re: Gove in a virtual world Barry Gray <barrygray@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2011-12-20 23:12 +0000
                        Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 08:07 +0100
                          Re: Gove in a virtual world Barry Gray <barrygray@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 09:33 +0000
                            Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 18:10 +0100
                              Re: Gove in a virtual world Patric Albutat <albutat@gmx.de> - 2011-12-21 20:46 +0100
                                Re: Gove in a virtual world SG nws <nwsgrp@ntlworld.com> - 2011-12-21 21:21 +0000
                            Re: Gove in a virtual world John <newsmcc@blueyonder.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 14:00 +0000
                            Re: Gove in a virtual world Chris <decordova@ukgateway.net> - 2011-12-24 19:46 +0100
                    Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-20 06:26 +0100
              Re: Gove in a virtual world Tim Hill <tim@invalid.org.uk> - 2011-12-18 08:15 +0000
            Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 09:41 +0100
              Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-17 15:21 +0000
              Re: Gove in a virtual world Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 21:24 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-18 08:09 +0100
                  Re: Gove in a virtual world Russell Hafter News <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> - 2011-12-18 10:32 +0000
                  Re: Gove in a virtual world trevj <trevj@cwazy.co.uk> - 2011-12-20 07:45 -0800
                    Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 08:08 +0100
            Re: Gove in a virtual world Matthew Phillips <spam2011m@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 10:33 +0000
              Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-17 15:46 +0000
            Re: Gove in a virtual world Russell Hafter News <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> - 2011-12-17 15:37 +0000
            Re: Gove in a virtual world Tim Hill <tim@invalid.org.uk> - 2011-12-18 08:23 +0000
              Re: Gove in a virtual world "Bruce Goatly" <ss4@goatly.co.uk> - 2011-12-18 10:42 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-18 15:58 +0000
          Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-17 12:17 +0000
            Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 12:47 +0000
              Re: Gove in a virtual world charles <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 12:57 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 19:08 +0100
            Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-17 12:51 +0000
              Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-17 15:17 +0000
              Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-17 18:02 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world NedA <news@ned.uk.invalid> - 2011-12-18 10:18 +0000
                  Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-18 18:25 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Steve Drain <steve@kappa.me.uk> - 2011-12-19 11:40 +0000
                  Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-20 23:17 +0000
                Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-20 06:51 +0100
                  Re: Gove in a virtual world cferris@freeRemoveuk.com.invalid - 2011-12-20 10:07 +0000
                    Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-20 23:20 +0000
                      Re: Gove in a virtual world Brian Jordan <brian.jordan9@btinternet.com> - 2011-12-21 00:43 +0000
                      Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 08:16 +0100
                        Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-21 12:22 +0000
                          Re: Gove in a virtual world Chris Evans <chris@cjemicros.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 17:20 +0000
                            Re: Gove in a virtual world cferris@freeRemoveuk.com.invalid - 2011-12-22 10:36 +0000
                              Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-23 07:19 +0100
                      Re: Gove in a virtual world cferris@freeRemoveuk.com.invalid - 2011-12-21 11:00 +0000
                        Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-21 12:25 +0000
                          Re: Gove in a virtual world Brian Jordan <brian.jordan9@btinternet.com> - 2011-12-21 13:23 +0000
                        Re: Gove in a virtual world  <cujimmy@nospam.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 19:50 +0000
                        Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-21 22:13 +0000
                          Re: Gove in a virtual world cferris@freeRemoveuk.com.invalid - 2011-12-26 10:50 +0000
                  Re: Gove in a virtual world druck <news@druck.org.uk> - 2011-12-21 11:58 +0000
                    Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 19:11 +0100
                      Re: Gove in a virtual world Steve Drain <steve@kappa.me.uk> - 2011-12-21 22:18 +0000
                        Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-23 07:38 +0100
                          Re: Gove in a virtual world Steve Drain <steve@kappa.me.uk> - 2011-12-23 12:31 +0000
                            APOLOGY to Steve Drain Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-24 05:52 +0100
                              Structures in BASIC Steve Drain <steve@kappa.me.uk> - 2011-12-24 11:38 +0000
                    Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-21 18:35 +0000
                      Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-23 07:32 +0100
                        Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-23 09:58 +0000
                          Re: Gove in a virtual world Brian Howlett <news-spamtrap@brianhowlett.me.uk> - 2011-12-23 10:12 +0000
                            Re: Gove in a virtual world Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> - 2011-12-23 10:31 +0000
                            Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-24 05:55 +0100
                          Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-24 05:56 +0100
            Re: Gove in a virtual world M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> - 2011-12-18 16:17 +0000
              Re: Gove in a virtual world Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> - 2011-12-20 07:24 +0100

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#2965 — Gove in a virtual world

Successive governments having made an asses horse of the ICT 
curriculum, one wonders where the resources will come from to teach 
programming in (secondary) schools.

Although Public, Academy, and Free schools can do pretty much as they 
want since the National Curriculum can't be imposed upon them 
methinks.

-- 
BW Chris F. [British Iyonix Computer, operating RISC OS 5.16]

"Within mine ale the globe do turn, my thoughts to spin." Sort Vikin.

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#2967

In article <52b8254252.c.n.l.f@virgin.net>,
   ChrisF <c.n.l.f@virgin.net> wrote:
> Successive governments having made an asses horse of the ICT 
> curriculum, one wonders where the resources will come from to teach 
> programming in (secondary) schools.

Not to mention the small matter of finding time in an already crowded
curriculum.  When I was HoD I had to fight to get two lessons a week for my
Years 10 and 11.  Programming, to any useful level, would need a heck of a
lot more than that!

> Although Public, Academy, and Free schools can do pretty much as they 
> want since the National Curriculum can't be imposed upon them 
> methinks.

Toby Young would not permit any reduction of the time given to such vital
subjects as Latin and Ancient Greek.

Alan

-- 
Alan Calder, Milton Keynes, UK.

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#2971

In article <5242263d48alan_calder@o2.co.uk>,
   Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> wrote:
[Snippy]
> Toby Young would not permit any reduction of the time given to such vital
> subjects as Latin and Ancient Greek.

> Alan

Alan, should that have ended with an emoticon of some sort?
As it baldly stands, I have no indication of how you feel about it one way
or the other.

Dave

-- 

Dave Triffid

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#2972

In article <52422777dbdave@triffid.co.uk>, Dave Symes <dave@triffid.co.uk>
wrote:
> In article <5242263d48alan_calder@o2.co.uk>, Alan Calder
> <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> wrote: [Snippy]
> > Toby Young would not permit any reduction of the time given to such
> > vital subjects as Latin and Ancient Greek.

> > Alan

> Alan, should that have ended with an emoticon of some sort? As it baldly
> stands, I have no indication of how you feel about it one way or the
> other.

C'mon, Dave!  Toby Young is a fully-fledged eejit.  'Nuff said?

On the matter of Ancient and extinct in the wild languages, I believe that
they are of great historical and cultural interest and should be given the
same status as other ancient or non-European languages such as Sanskrit,
Anglo-Saxon, Classical Arabic, Icelandic, Mandarin, Kazakh, Japanese, Old
East Slavic, Russian, Amharic and the like.  All are suitable for study but
those that are still widely spoken should have the edge if they are to be
studied at secondary school level as there is actually a chance of speaking
to a living human who actually uses them.  The rest are fine for academic
study at university and for personal pleasure.

Alan

-- 
Alan Calder, Milton Keynes, UK.

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#2974

In article <52422e1f31alan_calder@o2.co.uk>,
   Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <52422777dbdave@triffid.co.uk>, Dave Symes <dave@triffid.co.uk>
> wrote:
> > In article <5242263d48alan_calder@o2.co.uk>, Alan Calder
> > <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> wrote: [Snippy]
> > > Toby Young would not permit any reduction of the time given to such
> > > vital subjects as Latin and Ancient Greek.

> > > Alan

> > Alan, should that have ended with an emoticon of some sort? As it
> > baldly stands, I have no indication of how you feel about it one way
> > or the other.

> C'mon, Dave!  Toby Young is a fully-fledged eejit.  'Nuff said?

> On the matter of Ancient and extinct in the wild languages, I believe
> that they are of great historical and cultural interest and should be
> given the same status as other ancient or non-European languages such as
> Sanskrit, Anglo-Saxon, Classical Arabic, Icelandic, Mandarin, Kazakh,
> Japanese, Old East Slavic, Russian, Amharic and the like.  All are
> suitable for study but those that are still widely spoken should have
> the edge if they are to be studied at secondary school level as there is
> actually a chance of speaking to a living human who actually uses them. 
> The rest are fine for academic study at university and for personal
> pleasure.

> Alan

In that case Alan, I can agree with you on both counts.

Thanks
Dave

-- 

Dave Triffid

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#2975

On 15/12/2011 23:19, Alan Calder wrote:

> On the matter of Ancient and extinct in the wild languages,

Latin is still used quite a lot in biology, botany, medicine, anything 
that grows (or grew) has a Latin name. It is lingua-franca, as I've seen 
Japanese medical worksheets with stuff marked in Kanji and Latin.


> Japanese,

...start teaching 'em Japanese in primary school. By the time they leave 
secondary education, they might be able to hold a conversation!


> those that are still widely spoken should have the edge if they are to be
> studied at secondary school level as there is actually a chance of speaking
> to a living human who actually uses them.

True. I guess that's why we need to watch a Mel Gibson film to hear 
somebody actually speaking Aramaic. [which might be *his* idea of 
Aramaic, as opposed to actual Aramaic]


> for personal pleasure.

;-) Watashi wa... eto... eto... eto... eigo ga wakarimas ka?!? ;-)

[Japanese appears to suffer horribly from "context based 
minimalisation"; my audio course says how something *should* be said, 
then says "but this is usually omitted" and "that is usually omitted" 
and so on; so a word like "wakarimasen" (don't understand) can be a 
complete sentence... um... *I* don't understand? *YOU* don't understand? 
Nobody understands? It depends on what came before. <cry>]


Best wishes,

Rick.

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#2977

In article <4eeafdcd$0$2527$ba4acef3@reader.news.orange.fr>, Rick Murray
<heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 15/12/2011 23:19, Alan Calder wrote:

> > On the matter of Ancient and extinct in the wild languages,

> Latin is still used quite a lot in biology, botany, medicine, anything
> that grows (or grew) has a Latin name. It is lingua-franca, as I've seen
> Japanese medical worksheets with stuff marked in Kanji and Latin.

[Snip]

> True. I guess that's why we need to watch a Mel Gibson film to hear
> somebody actually speaking Aramaic. [which might be *his* idea of
> Aramaic, as opposed to actual Aramaic]

didn't see that. Is it similar to Dick van Dyle's "Cockney"?

-- 
From KT24 

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.16 

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#2978

In article <4eeafdcd$0$2527$ba4acef3@reader.news.orange.fr>, Rick Murray
<heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 15/12/2011 23:19, Alan Calder wrote:

> > On the matter of Ancient and extinct in the wild languages,

> Latin is still used quite a lot in biology, botany, medicine, anything
> that grows (or grew) has a Latin name. It is lingua-franca, as I've seen
> Japanese medical worksheets with stuff marked in Kanji and Latin.

It's not really used, is it?  I have a few Japanese relatives, courtesy of
a globe-trotting brother-in-law, a couple of whom are in the medical line. 
Never heard them break into a flurry of Latin once the sake gest low in the
bottle.  Never mind the way their accent would have them rolling in the
aisles down in the old Colosseum.

You might as well argue that Latin is used quite a lot in the garden centre
trade.  It is, for labelling but that's all really.  Lots of use still in
Astronomy but don't kid yourself that NASA is full of guys discussing
Horace's lates piece.


> > Japanese,

> ...start teaching 'em Japanese in primary school. By the time they leave
> secondary education, they might be able to hold a conversation!

Fair point.  Youngsters pick up language remarkably easily, a talent that
falls off rapidly with age.  I was pretty fluent in Arabic and could hold a
modest conversation in a couple of other local Sudanese languages when I
was seven.  All gone now beyond the tourist Arabic of salaam aliekum.  Do
still go misty eyed when I hear the call to prayer.


> > for personal pleasure.

> ;-) Watashi wa... eto... eto... eto... eigo ga wakarimas ka?!? ;-)

> [Japanese appears to suffer horribly from "context based
> minimalisation"; my audio course says how something *should* be said,
> then says "but this is usually omitted" and "that is usually omitted"
> and so on; so a word like "wakarimasen" (don't understand) can be a
> complete sentence... um... *I* don't understand? *YOU* don't understand?
> Nobody understands? It depends on what came before. <cry>]

I feel your pain.  My brother has been living in Okinawa for a year now and
his progress has been glacially slow for a guy who is a good natural mimic
and 'got' French within momths of living there.  Probably that age function
again.  The afore-mentioned bro-in-law otoh teaches in Japanese at a Tokyo
university but then he did start the process at age 23 and having a couple
of Japanese wives undoubtedly helped.  Perhaps a bit of pillow-talk might
be the way forward for you?   Assuming, hastily, that you are single or
having a very understanding spouse!

Cheers

Alan

-- 
Alan Calder, Milton Keynes, UK.

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#2995

In article <524272872dalan_calder@o2.co.uk>, Alan Calder
<alan_calder@o2.co.uk> wrote:

>  Perhaps a bit of pillow-talk might be the way forward
> for you?   Assuming, hastily, that you are single or
> having a very understanding spouse!

Pillow talk is recorded as having worked very well for my
great-great-aunt, who was banished by her 'respectable'
English family to Paris, where they were supposed to accept
that sort of thing.

Once she had fluent French she dumped the kind gentleman who
helped her learn so quickly, and then proceeded to learn
many other other European languages using the same
technique.

I rather doubt though, that we could persuade the
educational establishment of the virtue of such a simple
method.

-- 
Russell
http://www.russell-hafter-holidays.co.uk
Russell Hafter Holidays         E-mail to enquiries at our domain
Need a hotel? <http://www.hrs.com/?client=en__blue&customerId=416873103>

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#2999

In article <52430c7791see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid>,
   Russell Hafter News <see.sig@walkingingermany.invalid> wrote:
> In article <524272872dalan_calder@o2.co.uk>, Alan Calder
> <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> wrote:

> >  Perhaps a bit of pillow-talk might be the way forward
> > for you?   Assuming, hastily, that you are single or
> > having a very understanding spouse!

> Pillow talk is recorded as having worked very well for my
> great-great-aunt, who was banished by her 'respectable'
> English family to Paris, where they were supposed to accept
> that sort of thing.

> Once she had fluent French she dumped the kind gentleman who
> helped her learn so quickly, and then proceeded to learn
> many other other European languages using the same
> technique.

> I rather doubt though, that we could persuade the
> educational establishment of the virtue of such a simple
> method.

I raise a glass to your great-great-aunt's thirst for knowledge!

Introducing such a system to the secondary system might have some practical
difficulties.  Accomodation is usually at a premium as it is and providing
suitable 'language suites' might be a strain too far.  Perhaps with the
current push to find commercial uses for school buildings outside school
hours we could try a move to the Japanese 'love hotel' system?

Another way might be to arrange a variant on the sex-tourism industry. 
School exchanges could become quite steamy affairs, even more than they are
naturally.  From my experience of them it would put the boys at a
disadvantage in the acquisition of language - pimply 15 year olds are
scarcely an attractive prospect for your average madchen or mlle.

I think it would be best to leave such a method to private arrangements. 
My schools lost two language teachers to such pillow talk and we can't
afford such a rate of attrition in the general school system.

Cheers

Alan

-- 
Alan Calder, Milton Keynes, UK.

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#3018

In message <524272872dalan_calder@o2.co.uk>
          Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> wrote:

> and having a couple
> of Japanese wives undoubtedly helped.

Do they have different rules there?

-- 
Jess                   Iyonix

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#3035

In article <4251724352.jess@itworkshop.invalid>,
   Jess <phantasm_39@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In message <524272872dalan_calder@o2.co.uk>
>           Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> wrote:

> > and having a couple
> > of Japanese wives undoubtedly helped.

> Do they have different rules there?

:-)  Sequentially rather than simultaneously so the rules are the same.  At
least he didn't wind up in Utah and get involved with their local
idiosyncracies.

Cheers

Alan

-- 
Alan Calder, Milton Keynes, UK.

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#2981

Rick Murray wrote:
> and so on; so a word like "wakarimasen" (don't understand) can be a
> complete sentence... um... *I* don't understand? *YOU* don't understand?
> Nobody understands? It depends on what came before. <cry>]

And if you're male, you're supposed to grunt your way through it.
Wkrmsn?

JGH

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#2987

On 16/12/2011 16:04, jgharston wrote:

> And if you're male, you're supposed to grunt your way through it.
> Wkrmsn?

You sure that isn't just lazy Kansai dialect? (^_^)


Best wishes,

Rick.

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#2979

In article <52422e1f31alan_calder@o2.co.uk>,
   Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <52422777dbdave@triffid.co.uk>, Dave Symes <dave@triffid.co.uk>
> wrote:
> > In article <5242263d48alan_calder@o2.co.uk>, Alan Calder
> > <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> wrote: [Snippy]
> > > Toby Young would not permit any reduction of the time given to
> > > such vital subjects as Latin and Ancient Greek.

> > Alan, should that have ended with an emoticon of some sort? As it
> > baldly stands, I have no indication of how you feel about it one
> > way or the other.

> On the matter of Ancient and extinct in the wild languages, I
> believe that they are of great historical and cultural interest and
> should be given the same status as other ancient or non-European
> languages such as Sanskrit, Anglo-Saxon, Classical Arabic,
> Icelandic, Mandarin, Kazakh, Japanese, Old East Slavic, Russian,
> Amharic and the like.  All are suitable for study but those that
> are still widely spoken should have the edge if they are to be
> studied at secondary school level as there is actually a chance of
> speaking to a living human who actually uses them.  The rest are
> fine for academic study at university and for personal pleasure.

The real point about Latin (though having Greek in addition could be
a bit OTT - no emoticon!) is that it teaches the /structure/ of
languages, including one's own English. Forgive me, those whom I'm
teaching to suck eggs, because many others haven't an inkling.

The English language is scarcely "inflected" at all. E.g. you don't
write "to who this concerns" but instinctively write "to whom this
concerns" - in other words, for those who haven't encountered this
concept of inflection, the word (usually its ending) changes
according to context. Another example is "he/she" compared with
"him/her". We scarcely notice that English has a few inflected
plural words: rather than adding an "s" to form the plural, we say
"children", "men", "women" - not childs, mans, womans.

Latin, however, is a highly inflected language: it has quite
different endings in both singular and plural for each word. And so,
whereas in English we put a "preposition" before a word to mean 
"of . . by . . with . . to . . from . . ", in Latin it changes by
tacking a letter or two on to the end of the word.

Personally I think it's a triviality that Latin or Greek make it
easier to guess the meaning of a technical term. The importance of
Latin to me is to understand just how other languages work. You still
have to learn their words, their vocabulary, but it's much easier to
grasp how to manipulate those words to make up sentences. The other
spin-off is that the ability to understand sentence structure is
helpful in analysing precise legal wording.

Have you ever wondered why the best cryptanalysts seem to be either
mathematicians or classical scholars? I think it's because they've
both become intellectually aware of the /structure/ of communication.
Now, isn't that precisely what the RISC OS world has recently been
carping about? - that it's not enough to be able to play with the
products of other people's programming: the next generation needs to
find out about the /structure/ of the programs? 

Programming > understanding programs rather than just using them.
Latin > understanding other languages (and one's own), rather than
just using a translation device, whether electronic or a phrase book.

In retirement I decided to learn another language. At evening classes
I was with youngsters who'd never come across Latin. The teacher was
constantly having to explain and re-explain to them simple
grammatical details that for the elderly who'd learnt some Latin
needed no explanation.

Michael Harding
Rev. Preb. M.D. Harding   riscos@mdharding.org.uk

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#2980

In article <5242746733riscos@mdharding.org.uk>,
   M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:

[Snip]

> The real point about Latin (though having Greek in addition could be
> a bit OTT - no emoticon!) is that it teaches the /structure/ of
> languages, including one's own English. 

Yes, this is the standard argument for Latin.

Trouble is, it holds little of the wet stuff when examined.  The structure
of Latin is vastly different from that of modern English and any suggestion
that the odd point of coincidence is any more than that is pretty specious.
 Yes, lots of words have Latin/Ancient Greek roots, about 60% I believe,
but that means that 40% don't and the way we use them bears no comparison
to the way Julius C would have arranged them.  After all, we have, for
example, khaki, bungalow, tea, bottom in English, none of them Latin yet I
don't claim that their root languages necessarily are a good guide to
English structure.

You might also consider how a lack of Latin doesn't seem to penalise
Scandinavians, Chinese, Egyptians amongst others when learning English. 
Many seem to achieve native levels of fluency despite that handicap. 
Equally my previously mentioned brother-in-law seems to have managed to
become a highly proficient speaker of Japanese without a smidgeon of
Classical languages whilst my brother in Okinawa is struggling despite a
heavy duty schooling in Latin, Greek and Anglo-Saxon.

Latin is no help with the structures of languages beyond the limited number
of Latinate ones.  Try as you might, you won't find traces of Latin in
Tagalog, a language spoken by many more people than speak French.

I like the views of Mary Beard, Classics Professor at Cambridge and
Classics editor of the TLS.

"You do NOT learn Latin because it helps you learn other languages. Again
that may be a knock on effect. But if you want to learn (say) Spanish, it's
better to get on with it, not learn Latin first to make it easier.
(Besides, I always feel that any subject that tries to justify itself by
claiming that it helps you learn something else is on the way out.)

You do NOT learn Latin because it hones your critical and logical thinking.
True I rather like S.H. R. James's jingle that "Latin trains the brain"
(just as I am touched by Stephen Dalzell's plaudit for the sheer
uselessness of the language). But Latin is only one of many subjects that
does this. If we gave our kids three lessons in formal logic each week,
we'd probably soon notice a difference in their critical power."

The rest of her article is available at 
http://timesonline.typepad.com/dons_life/2006/07/does_latin_trai.html

Mind, I've nothing against Latin but I am disturbed by the way it is
fetishised by some.

Cheers

Alan

[Snip]

-- 
Alan Calder, Milton Keynes, UK.

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#2983

In article <524282c456alan_calder@o2.co.uk>,
   Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <5242746733riscos@mdharding.org.uk>,
>    M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:

> [Snip]

> > The real point about Latin (though having Greek in addition could
> > be a bit OTT - no emoticon!) is that it teaches the /structure/
> > of languages, including one's own English. 

> Yes, this is the standard argument for Latin.

> Trouble is, it holds little of the wet stuff when examined.  The
> structure of Latin is vastly different from that of modern English
> and any suggestion that the odd point of coincidence is any more
> than that is pretty specious. Yes, lots of words have Latin/Ancient
> Greek roots, about 60% I believe, but that means that 40% don't and
> the way we use them bears no comparison to the way Julius C would
> have arranged them.  After all, we have, for example, khaki,
> bungalow, tea, bottom in English, none of them Latin yet I don't
> claim that their root languages necessarily are a good guide to
> English structure.

That's what I was arguing: that it's a mere triviality that many
technical words are based on Latin/Greek. English is not Latinate.
Vocabulary is not the issue: the structure of sentences, of grammar,
is.

> You might also consider how a lack of Latin doesn't seem to
> penalise Scandinavians, Chinese, Egyptians amongst others when
> learning English. Many seem to achieve native levels of fluency
> despite that handicap. 

Of course you can learn other languages without Latin - everybody
does: I learned English from my parents. The structure of one's native
tongue is just "what sounds right", e.g. "to whom" not "to who". But
once you understand that "whom" is the accusative case compared with
the nominative "who" and the genitive "whose" you start to discover
/why/ it sounds right: you've found the structure of English. 

I began to learn French before Latin. But having gone on to Latin it
was much easier to make sense of the way complex French grammar
works, and to make sense of English grammar too. Then for me, Greek
coincidentally deepened that analysis of how Language works, with a
slightly different way of dealing with nouns and adjectives but a
very different concept of verbs.

The reason I advocate Latin (no, let's use the Anglo-Saxon version,
"stick up for" Latin) is that it's a convenient and straightforward
tool for learning how languages work. (To me the literature was just
a bonus.) In the late 1950s I wasn't allowed to study a modern
language at university without A-level Latin, and without it I would
never have coped with starting to learn Russian there, since that's
even more inflected and its verb patterns are diabolical. I could
have learnt Russian by living in Russia if it had been possible at
that period, but it would have been painfully slow and random.
Russians aren't aware that their language is inflected - it just
"sounds right" and not odd (like our "to who") and after a time
students no longer have to use the crutch of working out the word
endings and word order because it begins to sound right.

> Latin is no help with the structures of languages beyond the
> limited number of Latinate ones.  Try as you might, you won't find
> traces of Latin in Tagalog, a language spoken by many more people
> than speak French.

Nor of Latin in Russian vocabulary. 8-) 

> I like the views of Mary Beard, Classics Professor at Cambridge and
> Classics editor of the TLS.
[ . . . ]
> You do NOT learn Latin because it hones your critical and logical
> thinking. True I rather like S.H. R. James's jingle that "Latin
> trains the brain" (just as I am touched by Stephen Dalzell's
> plaudit for the sheer uselessness of the language). But Latin is
> only one of many subjects that does this. If we gave our kids three
> lessons in formal logic each week, we'd probably soon notice a
> difference in their critical power."

I think that's probably true about critical powers. I wonder whether
there's a difference though between "critical" and "analytical"
powers? It does help, in reading The Small Print, to be able to work
out analytically what the words actually add up to.

[ . . . ]
> Mind, I've nothing against Latin but I am disturbed by the way it
> is fetishised by some.

I'm with you about the (fetishising) cultural snobs. But I won't
allow people to put down a subject which I found extremely helpful in
moving on to other languages, on the sole basis that it's "dead".
C.S. Lewis complained about "chronological snobbery" - the snobbery
of considering anything beneath one's consideration because it's too
new, or too old.

This thread is reminiscent to me of one that's been running
elsewhere, about which computer language should be taught first, in
order to become proficient in programming in other languages!

Michael Harding
Rev. Preb. M.D. Harding   riscos@mdharding.org.uk

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#2984

In article <524294eac4riscos@mdharding.org.uk>,
   M Harding <riscos@mdharding.org.uk> wrote:
> In article <524282c456alan_calder@o2.co.uk>,
>    Alan Calder <alan_calder@o2.co.uk> wrote:

[Snip]

> That's what I was arguing: that it's a mere triviality that many
> technical words are based on Latin/Greek. English is not Latinate.
> Vocabulary is not the issue: the structure of sentences, of grammar,
> is.

I'm far from convinced that the structure and grammar of Modern English has
much relation to Latin as it was originally mangled in the streets of
Pompeii.  Yes, there is some but nothing that would not be equally matched
in French or Spanish.

[Snip]

> Of course you can learn other languages without Latin - everybody
> does: I learned English from my parents. 

I think you misread me here.  I wasn't referring to learning one's native
language but to learning English when your native tongue is not even part
of the Latin grouping.  Hungarian, say, or Japanese.  My Japanese sisters
in law seem to have managed excellent English skills without the assistance
of Kennedy's Latin Primer of unholy memory.  

[Snip]

> I'm with you about the (fetishising) cultural snobs. But I won't
> allow people to put down a subject which I found extremely helpful in
> moving on to other languages, on the sole basis that it's "dead".
> C.S. Lewis complained about "chronological snobbery" - the snobbery
> of considering anything beneath one's consideration because it's too
> new, or too old.

I think that we are basically in agreement on the fetishising!  It's the
'moving on to other languages' bit I'm not so sure of.  You said it helped
you with Russian but I wonder if learning Italian or Spanish might have
been just as advantageous?  I've mentioned my Japanese-speaking
brother-in-law before.  He learnt Russian at Bangor when he was still in
his deepest Red phase and never touched Latin until his 40s when he decided
to become an Oxford academic - he was always a one for playing the full
part, right down to the tweed jacket with leather elbow patches.  Mind you,
some people just seem to have the knack when it comes to language.  My
music teacher wouldn't tolerate the notion that a person couldn't sing and
my French partner is of the same mind on French pronunciation.  She, at
least, will admit that I can't sing but refuses to accept that I can't
manage her preferred Avignon accent.

I'm afraid I cannot see how learning Latin helps with learning Mandarin or
Tamil.  My beef isn't anything to do with Latin being dead, it's with the
to my mind spurious notion that the language has special powers when it
comes to education at primary or secondary levels.

Been fun but we'd better be careful in case the Druck is listening.  Wonder
what the latin for a drucking is?

Cheers

Alan

[Snip]

-- 
Alan Calder, Milton Keynes, UK.

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#2989

On 16/12/2011 18:02, M Harding wrote:

> students no longer have to use the crutch of working out the word
> endings and word order because it begins to sound right.

ain't me miss, is 'im wot did it


I'm sure to a person saying that, *that* sounds right.


> I wonder whether there's a difference though between "critical"
> and "analytical" powers?

Yes. Critical powers are good for debate sessions. The government, on 
the other hand, would bend over backwards to get rid of analytical 
powers, for they are deathly afraid that somebody might analyse them 
(instead of believing The Red Tops) and realise what a bunch of <rest of 
sentence censored>.


> It does help, in reading The Small Print, to be able to work
> out analytically what the words actually add up to.

;-) Not always.

Actually, I find the most useful thing in decoding Small Print is not a 
grasp of language to decode the phrases, but a grasp of basic law to 
know whether or not the Small Print is even tenable.


> C.S. Lewis complained about "chronological snobbery" - the snobbery
> of considering anything beneath one's consideration because it's too
> new, or too old.

Oh dear. I'm afraid my cut-off limits are as follows:

   New           - Today
   Retro         - Yesterday
   Honorary Cool - The '80s... just... generally.
   Old           - Before Econet time
   Ancient       - Before Unixtime
   Prehistory    - Before the semiconductor

;-)


> This thread is reminiscent to me of one that's been running
> elsewhere, about which computer language should be taught first, in
> order to become proficient in programming in other languages!

Given that programming languages are rigidly specified, tend to contain 
less than a hundred 'words', and don't arbitrarily mean different things 
depending on the mood of the machine, I think it is a hell of a lot 
easier to learn a programming language than to even begin to approach 
the problem of a human language.

What you want is a language that is 'safe': you can't really break much 
with it, is easy to learn the basics, can get to a useful program 
rapidly so results can be *seen*, encourages good programming without 
enforcing it rigidly, and provides a sufficient wealth of built-in 
libraries/functions that near-instant gratification can be achieved in 
the writing of code.

Can't break much? Might rule out C as it is easy to do dumb things in C.
Easy to learn? Rules out Java-based languages, unless your fetish of 
choice is punctuation abuse.
Can get to a useful program rapidly. Sorry, that's hasta la vista to 
assembler.
Good programming? Bye bye most lesser dialects of BASIC.
...but doesn't enforce it rigidly? See ya later, Pascal!
Good built-in libraries? Could be curtains for BBC BASIC here?

A person might consider a language like VisualBasic to have been a good 
basic introduction to programming. It is 'safe', sanitised, has good 
library support, and is very near to clicky-codey programming. Results 
are nearly instant, and the IDE is integrated well enough that the 
build-link-run stage is barely noticable. It also has a pretty good set 
of debugging tools for when things go wrong. It might at times 
patronisingly hold your hand (or try to), but for a newb, that might be 
exactly what they need.

Or you could be a sadistic bastard and teach perl with regex as their 
introduction to programming.
Or: ++++++++++[>+++++++>+++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.[etc etc] [*]


Best wishes,

Rick.

* - Wiki "brainf**k" (with "uc" instead of "**")

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#2990

In article <4eec5e39$0$2504$ba4acef3@reader.news.orange.fr>,
   Rick Murray <heyrickmail-usenet@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> ain't me miss, is 'im wot did it
                            done it!

Don'you know nuffink?

John

-- 
John Williams, Brittany, Northern France - no attachments to these addresses!
Non-RISC OS posters change user to johnrwilliams or put 'risc' in subject!
Who is John Williams? http://petit.four.free.fr/picindex/author/

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