Path: csiph.com!weretis.net!feeder6.news.weretis.net!news.misty.com!border-2.nntp.ord.giganews.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!buffer2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!buffer1.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.earthlink.com!news.earthlink.com.POSTED!not-for-mail NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 02 Aug 2022 23:51:29 -0500 Subject: Re: COBOL and tricks Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.os.linux.misc References: <337089555.680728311.711454.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org> <345338960.680825886.860453.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org> <3sydnWzlja2l2nr_nZ2dnUU7-dHNnZ2d@earthlink.com> <903386062.681149639.659616.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org> From: "25B.Z969" <25B.Z969@noda.net> Date: Wed, 3 Aug 2022 00:51:28 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.13.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <903386062.681149639.659616.peter_flass-yahoo.com@news.eternal-september.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Message-ID: Lines: 111 X-Usenet-Provider: http://www.giganews.com NNTP-Posting-Host: 98.77.165.113 X-Trace: sv3-rAmuKB2xVZ6HuLhrCItLa+PrUQMgZkoBZXfEz4rcpHp55swofumbmMHGCsZXQn6hJnux1GTbjXjZEdQ!cMWYToSRoVKSCobXPb3qwhYFs6QTeWqFq53uVhPhKCU1vs/VcjuI2l6ji2rH/mePonlmwXfbYP07!9KAhmuGD6OOkRg5COUPK X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Please be sure to forward a copy of ALL headers X-Abuse-and-DMCA-Info: Otherwise we will be unable to process your complaint properly X-Postfilter: 1.3.40 X-Original-Bytes: 6872 Xref: csiph.com alt.folklore.computers:221643 comp.os.linux.misc:35384 On 8/2/22 12:23 PM, Peter Flass wrote: > 25B.Z959 <25B.Z959@nada.net> wrote: >> On 8/1/22 10:45 AM, D.J. wrote: >>> On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 23:23:35 -0400, "25B.Z959" <25B.Z959@nada.net> >>> wrote: >>>> On 7/29/22 6:23 PM, Peter Flass wrote: >>>>> The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>>>>> On 28/07/2022 20:13, Peter Flass wrote: >>>>>>> The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>>>>>>> On 28/07/2022 12:01, Dan Espen wrote: >>>>>>>>> "25B.Z959" <25B.Z959@nada.net> writes: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> But then it has to deal with packed decimals ... :-) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> 'Efficient' is kind of relative - is it fewer ASM bytes >>>>>>>>>> or fewer ultimate CPU cycles ? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Depends. Sometimes it was lack of EPROM space >>>>>>>> Sometimes it was lack of CPU Hz. >>>>>>>> What isn't efficient is low source code byte count achieved by removing >>>>>>>> the comments >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Unless your source is on paper tape. >>>>>>> >>>>>> It is still going to end up as machine code long before you run it >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> If you punch your code on cards, you get one instruction per card. The >>>>> other sixty or so characters will be there whether they’re blanks or a >>>>> comment, so you might as well comment. If you use paper tape, comments will >>>>> balloon the size of your source to several times it’s size, and you have to >>>>> read in all that tape to compile. I think early tapes used card-images, >>>>> blocked or unblocked, so, again, comments were “free.” >>>> >>>> Largely true ... the "Real App Tapes" didn't include the >>>> comments - that was "elsewhere", printed onto the wide- >>>> format fan-fold paper with green stripes in the local equiv >>>> of Courier-12 by an 8-pin teletype/printer, where'd it'd >>>> soon get lost or totally out-of-sync because people kept >>>> making "tweaks" without documenting them in the slightest >>>> beyond MAYbe a scribble on their deskpads .......... >>>> >>>> This was when "large convenient removable storage" was >>>> 8" SS/SD floppies. I still come across white ring >>>> notebooks with those printouts, and several of those >>>> old floppies. Is it even POSSIBLE to read those disk >>>> formats these days ??? >>>> >>>> The same is coming to apply to 5-1/4 disks SS/SD thru >>>> DS/QuadD/HD, and it won't be long before even 3-1/2 >>>> and CD/DVD disks won't have any readers. You didn't >>>> use "ZIP disks", did you ?). Yer "safest" bet may be >>>> "the cloud" - but eventually they'll all get hacked >>>> or go out of business so REPLICATION is the holy grail. >>> >>> The last time I looked online, about 2019, I was able to locate for >>> sale an external USB 3.5" floppy drive. >> >> Harder and harder to find these days. For an INTERNAL 3-1/2 >> you'll need to find a mboard kinda of the Core2-Quad vintage >> where there were still dedicated headers on the board. I >> have one - and will KEEP it. ALSO supports 5-1/4" and has >> a parallel port that can run ZIP disks. A valuable bit of >> hardware (and NOT as slow as you'd think). >> >> But 8" floppies ... no ... nothing anymore. Those died out >> in the early 80s. No hardware, no drivers ..... >> >>> I still have, somewhere, in a storage box, a 5.25" floppy drive, >>> internal. And i think I still have a desktop computer i can put it in. >>> No idea if the PSU, or the hard drive, stil lwork though. >>> >>> I've never seen an 8" floppy drive anywhere. >>> -- >>> Jim >> >> I used an LSI-11 system with those for a couple of years. >> They were REALLY "floppy" :-) Still have a few notebooks >> with the print-outs AND those disk in there. There were also >> some that were like 12" ... and held even LESS data. Never >> used those. I think they weren't even MFM encoded, more like >> pure FM. the Original Deal. >> >> I did like those old hard drives with the removable >> disk-stacks. DO make sure the thing has reached zero >> RPMs before attempting to EXTRACT the pack though. >> >> For the newbies, you opened the lid on what kinda looked >> like a little top-loading washing machine, pushed a big >> plastic 12-inch or so top-cover down over the disk-stack, >> twisted it to lock and then physically lifted the stack >> out of the "drive". However the safety interlocks, IF they >> existed, didn't always work right ... the stack MIGHT >> still be at like 1000 RPM when you pulled it out. >> Google the term "gyroscopic precession" :-) > > We used to grab them before they stopped completely. And HELD ON TIGHT I'll bet !!! :-) I did witness a disaster when an impatient somebody pulled out the stack when the RPMs were still pretty high. The gymnastics that ensued were kinda amusing but eventually the disk stack escaped and smashed, several times, against the walls and floor. Oh the (bitwise) Humanity !!!