Path: csiph.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail From: rbowman Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc Subject: Re: Artix Linux and Xlibre Date: 3 Aug 2025 21:55:14 GMT Lines: 77 Message-ID: References: <1063lgp$jmj$2@reader1.panix.com> <1063ruo$2kgsj$3@dont-email.me> <10640fb$1gqnn$2@dont-email.me> <106411i$2l2gd$3@dont-email.me> <10646dg$1gqnn$3@dont-email.me> <1064ag9$1kvkq$1@dont-email.me> <1064m75$1lvr1$1@dont-email.me> <10667je$35rkf$2@dont-email.me> <106bdkb$2s14s$1@dont-email.me> <106bjgj$2t9mq$5@dont-email.me> <106cld0$33q3n$2@dont-email.me> <106l5kp$133ed$3@dont-email.me> <106ohbv$1q0ne$1@dont-email.me> <106olee$1r0v9$1@dont-email.me> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: individual.net wXcVN+p54aGjdbUjZo07lAt06Jb/Xodg0lxzJeZkz+K5HP9V1L Cancel-Lock: sha1:nRu34t/z1JP6N73oEUA76qyJIIM= sha256:I7QoduQ5Mrk7H2Mu4Z9TzCkCp2USfU9HiExGxuzDafk= User-Agent: Pan/0.162 (Pokrosvk) Xref: csiph.com comp.os.linux.misc:70303 On Sun, 3 Aug 2025 22:47:58 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > On 03/08/2025 21:38, Bobbie Sellers wrote: >> >> >> On 8/3/25 04:13, Richard Kettlewell wrote: >>> The Natural Philosopher writes: >>>> And that really is the issue. If you are setting up a machine - a big >>>> machine - with multiple *custom* services to initiate,  then the >>>> effort to learn systemd is probably saved in terms of writing the >>>> service definitions. >>>> >>>> But in terms of a relatively 'naive' user who just wants 'a desktop >>>> that works out of the box' by and large in many cases systemd has >>>> resulted in stuff that does *not* work straight out of the box. And, >>>> worse, trying to extract error logs from systemd is far more involved >>>> to determine *why*. >>>> >>>> In essence there are (at least) two different target audiences. But a >>>> Poeterring imposed 'one size that suits enterprise Linux is what you >>>> should *all* be using' on the workstation, both for  sophisticated >>>> and naive users, is less than ideal. >>> >>> LP could only influence Red Hat’s Linux platforms (and I doubt he was >>> the only decision maker there, although I’ve no idea how RH operate >>> internally). So I don’t really buy the ‘imposed’ narrative. Other >>> platforms chose to adopt systemd, or in some cases not, according to >>> their own priorities. >>> >>> Sometimes an OS can offer a choice between components. For example, >>> Debian includes at least a dozen desktop environments. Service >>> management is a bit more fundamental; it’s not necessarily impossible >>> to support a choice, but it is more challenging, and for much less >>> reward. >>> It’s not surprising that most distributions have decided to pick one. >>> >>> End users get to follow what their OS of choice does. If enough people >>> share the same priorities (and if at least some of them have >>> appropriate skills and resources) then you end up with platforms >>> following those priorities, and that does seem to have happened with >>> systemd: >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ Category:Linux_distributions_without_systemd >>> >>>> I always mention postScript, X windows and systemd as examples of >>>> stuff that really didn't work that great when first introduced, and >>>> took a long time to get going bug free and was always - in the case >>>> of PostScript and X windows a huge amount of code that by and large >>>> *no one ever used*. >>> >>> In the case of X11, my understanding is that the outcome of getting >>> rid of all that cruft is Wayland. >>> >>     Cruft to you is functionality that Wayland has yet to >>     demonstrate. >> >> >>> KiCad Advises Linux Users to Stick with X11 for Professional PCB >>> Design >>>                 By Bobby Borisov  June 27, 2025 >>> >>>  The KiCad team outlines serious Wayland limitations, including >>>  window >>> control and >>>  crashes, urging users to stick with X11 desktops for reliability. >>> Full article at the next URL: >>> >> design/> >> >>     So you see that some functionality is missing from Wayland. >> > I dont mind that provided its not foisted on us and gets fixed over time Some X functionality was removed from Wayland by design to improve security. There is no 'fix'.