Path: csiph.com!weretis.net!feeder9.news.weretis.net!news.nk.ca!rocksolid2!i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: D Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc Subject: Re: Joy of this, Joy of that Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2024 11:52:47 +0100 Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org) Message-ID: <4ff308ff-51b1-3fc8-4e97-2dca1586331b@example.net> References: <495550f7-796e-4414-67ae-26d3f8ba16f1@example.net> <33442f75-5afe-ce6b-d5b2-19efc78a72d3@example.net> <2c1fb128-258b-7848-e896-3246674d460f@example.net> <2d814efc-b5f8-a1f9-d273-77016cb3cbae@example.net> <9cGcnY0c8c3LA8_6nZ2dnZfqnPudnZ2d@earthlink.com> <6465d1f8-6fab-e3bd-0345-86011937364d@example.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="8323328-1810582575-1733655169=:3169" Injection-Info: i2pn2.org; logging-data="1851134"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@i2pn2.org"; posting-account="w/4CleFT0XZ6XfSuRJzIySLIA6ECskkHxKUAYDZM66M"; X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 4.0.0 In-Reply-To: Xref: csiph.com comp.os.linux.misc:61950 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --8323328-1810582575-1733655169=:3169 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > On 07/12/2024 22:07, D wrote: >> >> >> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >> >>>> I think it can even happen spontaneously, and then there's near death >>>> experiences as well. >>>> >>> The ultimate trauma... >> >> Yes, and boy is it fascinating! >> >>>> That brings me to the thought, since psylocybin and other mushrooms are >>>> now starting to become so common, if there's something to be gained by >>>> doing it the natural way instead of "shocking" the mind with external >>>> drugs? >>>> >>> Depends on the person.  Drugs are supremely violent and the moment or >>> revelations may well be too much for people to survive mentally intact... >> >> True. I would very much like to try, but I have madness in the distant >> family >> and I do not want to take any risk of jarring the good, old brain since it >> might >> be latent in me. >> >>> There isn't much point in achieving enlightenment if you are then unable >>> to cope with daily life. >> >> This is another interesting thought experiment. We tend to sanctify saints, >> saying they are the paragon of humanity. But would all of us becoing saints >> really be a good end station for humanity? >> >> If I look at monks and monasteries, they decide (for the love of humanity) >> to >> move away and pray. If you look at saintly figures among the monks (the >> "rock >> stars" of spirituality) they tend to withdraw even more, and the brothers >> take >> care of them. >> >> Now imagine a planet of such people. It does sound as if the human species >> would >> just slowly fade away. >> >>> "Before enlightenment, chopping wood, fetching water: After enlightenment >>> chopping wood, fetching water" >>> >>> :-) >> >> True. From where is that quote? > > Standard Zen shit I think > >> >>>> The reason I'm thinking about it is that I 've read about underground >>>> trip-clinics where people get "hooked" on the spiritual experience of >>>> merging with the universe. They want to experience it again and again. >>>> >>> Bliss junkies. >>> >>> It inst an escape. They probably gave em fentanyl. They knocked me out >>> with that for my last operation. Wow! >> >> Yes, it does sound like junkies. They are only there for the instant >> effects, >> and not for the goal (to find god). I think, but am not sure, that buddha >> strongly warned against blissful states, spiritual experiences, esp and so >> on, >> and said "just keep on meditating and do not let yourself be distracted by >> that". >> > Yes. Very much so. > >> It would make a lot of sense if that is what he said, and it would also >> make me >> think that in fact, bliss junkies is exactly what they are, and that it >> might >> actually be harmful for them in the long run, even though they run around >> feeling bliss all day. >> >>>> Contrast that with a buddhist monk who trained meditation for decades, >>>> and then has his realization. He might be a kind and loving man, with >>>> enormous compassion, continuing with his meditation and helping people. >>>> >>> Indeed. >>> >>>> The young man in the trip-clinic, goes there once a week to get his dose >>>> of spirituality. >>>> >>> Or down the club for a bit of Ecstasy. >>> >>> There is a reason psychedelics are no longer in vogue. They don't >>> guarantee a good time at all. In fact they can deliver a seriously bad >>> one. Hence Ecstasy - a cross between an amphetamine and a psychedelic. >> >> I think transpersonal psychology and psychedelic therapy are trying to >> mitigate >> that, and make it for "everyone" by carefully monitoring the process and >> the >> doseages. > > Well good luck with that. I come from a rougher and less sympathetic age. If > you cant take the heat stay out of the kitchen. > > >> >>>> Is this good or bad? Is there a component that favours one or the other >>>> method? >>>> >>> Depends on the person. I think you need to be very strong to survive any >>> drug. But weak people are attracted. >> >> Only one way to find out! ;) >> >>>> I have a business colleague who is afraid of death. He went to an >>>> underground clinic and took a trip, and for a week or two afterwards he >>>> felt more in tune with the world and more spiritual and even hesitated to >>>> kill mosquitoes out of compassion. But then the effect started to wear >>>> off as life came back. >>>> >>> Psychedelics destroy your current world view. You can then find >>> alternative ones, or end up with none at all, in a mental institution, but >>> your normal one is a deep groove to escape from...its like they are a tool >>> to modify the metaphysics. But they are no guarantee the modification will >>> hold. >> >> I think it depends and can be anything from destroying it, shattering your >> ego, >> jarring it, or mildly "nudging" it. Maybe psychological illness is like the >> gearbox getting stuck, and the mild jarring, or hit of the drug, might >> shake it >> a bit so it becomes unstuck? > > Mental illness from the psychedelic perspective is simply a bad metaphysical > choice. > People choose to believe something, perhaps not even consciously, that makes > them dysfunctional and unhappy. But in some sense secure in their belief. > > "everyone is out to get me because i am in fact superior in every way, so I > don't need to change my views at all, I am right, and they are simply wrong" > > > >> >>> This is the world we have to live in - unless we are extremely permanently >>> 'enlightened' >> >> True. I often think that the reason christianity banned suicide was that >> life >> was so bad in the middle ages, that if people truly believed they would go >> to >> heaven after death, they would all commit suicide, if the church didn't >> forbid >> that way of "hacking the system"! ;) >> > Lol. Hacking the christian system > >>>> I don't know if it did anything long term, about his fear of death. >>>> >>>> For me, the tetrapharmakon is as good a treatment as any! =) >>> >>> "In my life, I have travelled many paths, >>> into the bush and out of it >>> But I am not anywhere. >>> For me there is only the travelling on paths with heart >>> On any path with heart >>> And their I travel looking breathlessly" >>> >>> "But how can one know a path with heart?" >>> >>> "Any fool can know that, the problem is that no one asks the question" >> >> From where is this quote? > > The teachings of Don Juan - Carlos Castenada. A mixture of truth and fiction > IMHO. Thank you, will have to look it up to see if there is much food for thought there. --8323328-1810582575-1733655169=:3169--