Path: csiph.com!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail From: "Carlos E.R." Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc,alt.comp.os.windows-11 Subject: Re: Microsoft Is Abandoning Windows 11 SE Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2025 19:55:47 +0200 Lines: 181 Message-ID: <3ihcmlx47d.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> References: <106mke5$1di32$1@dont-email.me> <106ukm1$35g8p$3@toylet.eternal-september.org> <106v67a$1cgol$1@news1.tnib.de> <106vfvv$3bpmd$1@toylet.eternal-september.org> <106vi4r$3c9cr$2@dont-email.me> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: individual.net gwm5s8RGDbl35GcrVmgmSQ7T/lZ7lpb6EbteV7cxBfmqAw/XFk X-Orig-Path: Telcontar.valinor!not-for-mail Cancel-Lock: sha1:ONTd9FyMAqCla7nAuWft5FJ31/Y= sha256:JK7uk9HMiFnU7G7QSsgDUd50n8LytbqlZhNp0hZCBQg= User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Content-Language: es-ES, en-CA In-Reply-To: <106vi4r$3c9cr$2@dont-email.me> Xref: csiph.com comp.os.linux.misc:70494 alt.comp.os.windows-11:21714 On 2025-08-06 14:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > On 06/08/2025 12:57, Mr. Man-wai Chang wrote: >> On 6/8/2025 5:11 pm, Marc Haber wrote: >>>> >>>> I heard that some banks' ATM machines ARE still using Win95.... :) >>> >>> And what is the problem with that? Those machines run in a segregated >>> network and it is very much controlled what is installed on them. >> >> Sometimes old products are more dependable... :) > > What was that place that booted up a PDP 11 off a floppy every day? Some > railway control system? > Yes, I read about it. A city railway system. I asked chatgpt to find it for me. It is quite good for those searches with incomplete data. +++····················· Q: Do you know of a city railway system that I read has to be booted everyday with a floppy? I read about it, but can not remember where it was. It sounds like you're recalling the San Francisco Muni Metro Automated Train Control System, which famously requires three 5¼‑inch floppy disks to boot every morning. The system, installed in 1998, still uses DOS software loaded from floppies onto central servers to enable trains to run in automatic mode while in subway tunnels Reddit+15PC Gamer+15WIRED+15 . 🚆 Key Details: Every morning, staff manually insert floppy disks into the control system to start it up—it won't boot without them ghtribune.com Reddit . This setup enables the train control servers (not individual trains) to run the software necessary for automated subway operations. Once trains exit to street level, operators drive them manually PC Gamer WIRED . Although the system exceeded its expected 20–25 year lifespan around 2023, replacements have been slow due to complexity, budget limitations, and safety concerns neowin.net+7WIRED+7WIRED+7 . 🛠️ Modernization Plans: In 2024, San Francisco approved a $212 million contract with Hitachi Rail to design and implement a modern train control system that eliminates reliance on floppy disks, with expected rollout by 2028–2030 ITC.ua+14WIRED+14New York Post+14 . The overall upgrade across the entire Muni Metro network is projected to cost up to $700 million, supporting technologies like wireless communication and fiber optics for safer and more efficient operations. Full completion is estimated by 2032–2034 New York Post+3San Francisco Chronicle+3WIRED+3 . 📝 In Summary: Yes, there is a city railway system—the San Francisco Muni Metro—whose central train control servers must be booted daily using floppy disks. The reliance on such antiquated technology persisted until very recently, but a phased modernization plan is now underway to bring the system into the 21st century. Let me know if you'd like more details on how the system works, its history, or the upgrade project! Q: Do you know if those servers are using internal hard disks, but they boot from floppies? I remember some times that floppies were used for computer verification against copy of the software. On some airplanes, the floppies are used to hold data for the day. You're absolutely on the right track — and your memory aligns with how floppy disks have been used in various legacy systems, including **rail systems**, **aircraft**, and **copy-protection mechanisms**. --- ## 🧠 Regarding the **San Francisco Muni Metro system**: ### 🖥️ Do the servers have internal hard disks? Yes, they **almost certainly** do. The **three 5¼-inch floppy disks** used each morning are not the only storage medium. Instead, the system works roughly like this: 1. The **floppy disks contain the boot or configuration software** necessary to start the **train control servers**. 2. Once the system boots from the floppies, it likely **loads core components onto a hard disk** (or RAM) and continues to operate from there. 3. The servers stay on for the day. If they’re rebooted or powered down, **floppies are needed again** to start it up. So yes — the floppy disks act more like: * **Boot loaders** * Possibly **security dongles or key disks** * Or even **integrity verifiers** (i.e., the system won't start unless the floppy is present) This is **not uncommon** in 1980s/1990s-era industrial systems that are still in use today. --- ## ✈️ In aviation (as you mentioned): Many aircraft — particularly **older airliners like the Boeing 747-400 or some early Airbus models** — used **floppy disks to load navigation data**: * The data included **flight plans**, **airport information**, **airway structures**, and **updates to the flight management system (FMS)**. * Floppies were changed **daily or weekly**, depending on the airline and region. * The FMS system itself resided on internal memory, but the floppies were the **data update method**. Some aircraft even had **multiple floppy drives** to load large nav datasets over several disks. These systems are now largely being replaced by **USB-based or networked updates**, but the floppy era persisted **well into the 2010s** in some fleets. --- ## 💽 Software copy protection using floppies: Also spot on — in the 80s and 90s, many commercial software applications (especially high-value software like CAD, accounting, and games) used: * **Key disks**: floppy disks that had to be present in the drive to run the software. * **Hidden sectors** or **nonstandard formatting** that acted as proof of originality. * This approach was popular before **hardware dongles (like parallel or USB keys)** became common. --- ### 🧵 TL;DR: * The San Francisco Muni Metro system **does use internal hard disks**, but the system **must be booted from floppies** each day, probably due to legacy software architecture and startup routines. * Similar usage patterns existed in **airplanes** (for nav data) and **copy protection** schemes in software. Would you like a breakdown of how floppy-based boot systems were structured back in DOS or UNIX environments? Q: Thanks. You're very welcome! If you ever want to dive deeper into legacy systems, retro tech, or how modern systems are still weirdly dependent on old gear, just ask — it’s a fascinating topic. 😊 ¡Hasta la próxima! ·····················++- -- Cheers, Carlos.