Path: csiph.com!eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!nntp.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: John Ames Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc Subject: Re: The Web (HTML) Sux Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2025 13:41:53 -0800 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 47 Message-ID: <20251223134153.00005fb0@gmail.com> References: <10i7khm$2e0ab$3@dont-email.me> <10i8lit$2ltf1$1@dont-email.me> <10i8u2b$2p3ha$1@dont-email.me> <69487137@news.ausics.net> <20251222135823.000042ea@gmail.com> <10icgk7$3rvck$1@dont-email.me> <20251222144314.000060d0@gmail.com> <10icj90$3snlp$2@dont-email.me> <20251222153725.000058b6@gmail.com> <10icl7j$3t6jc$2@dont-email.me> <20251223095921.00004fba@gmail.com> <10ieujr$hok8$6@dont-email.me> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Date: Tue, 23 Dec 2025 21:41:59 +0000 (UTC) Injection-Info: dont-email.me; posting-host="deec583291a8e2f0db77a9dd1fdd0418"; logging-data="607222"; mail-complaints-to="abuse@eternal-september.org"; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18v30KoOb77pcBGUo46bdKkxikf5k6YI3M=" Cancel-Lock: sha1:Q478UjdCiB7r1WzauTf/3Su7r98= X-Newsreader: Claws Mail 4.3.0 (GTK 3.24.42; x86_64-w64-mingw32) Xref: csiph.com comp.os.linux.misc:79746 On Tue, 23 Dec 2025 20:38:19 -0000 (UTC) Lawrence D=E2=80=99Oliveiro wrote: > > For myself, I am entirely comfortable saying that overwrought, > > kludgy, and (especially) abusive patterns are *objectively bad web > > design,* in the same way that the people in charge of Grenfell Tower > > were engaging in objectively bad architectural renovations ... =20 >=20 > Boy, what a way to escalate a strawman, conflating a matter of mere > aesthetics and personal annoyance with a situation that was actually > life-threatening on a massive scale. *A.* that's not what a straw-man argument is (that'd be if the behavior in question were not actually evidenced in real life - but I cited very real patterns and gave a specific IRL example, and can absolutely offer more,) and *B.* while I freely admit to using a hyperbolic comparison to make a point, the point is one I stand by: Arguing that web design is purely a matter of taste and objections to specific practices are Just, Like, Your Opinion, Man is, essentially, arguing that the design and implementation of systems for use by the general public is something where there are no real standards and no consequences to shoddy workmanship. This is, as the Kids These Days say, a *bad take.* Obviously, having trouble with a misbehaving website is a smaller thing than burning to death in a badly-renovated apartment building.* But even in the little things - every pointless extra step, unneccessary delay due to lazy, inefficient implementation, thing that has to be re- done thanks to a buggy form, or irritating search for a feature buried under baroque UI or incompatible CSS is seconds - minutes? hours? - off of *someone's* life, maybe multiple someones', maybe *many people's.* * (Though I'd note that far too many emergency-services departments and healthcare providers are farming their online presence out to the lowest bidder, these days, and it's distinctly possible that there's a real-world death toll for that. And for that matter, I'd bet that the ever-increasing disenfranchisement of People Without Smartphones by utility companies has had IRL impacts on people's well-being. Or how about that major overhaul of Australia's Bureau of Meteorology website, for a nice recent and highly-publicized example? People can absolutely die thanks to buggy or inaccessible weather services.) In a very low-key kind of way, shoddy workmanship is statistical murder. Nik Suresh wrote a piece on that theme, some years ago, and it's stuck with me ever since: https://ludic.mataroa.blog/blog/i-killed-superman/