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Tail Call Optimization (Tail Recursion)

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  Tail Call Optimization (Tail Recursion) Terry Michaels <cmhoward@frigidcode.com> - 2011-04-18 00:59 -0500
    Re: Tail Call Optimization (Tail Recursion) 7stud -- <bbxx789_05ss@yahoo.com> - 2011-04-18 12:29 -0500
      Re: Tail Call Optimization (Tail Recursion) "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2011-04-18 18:10 +0000
        Re: Tail Call Optimization (Tail Recursion) Louis-Philippe <default@spiralix.org> - 2011-04-18 15:40 -0500
          Re: Tail Call Optimization (Tail Recursion) "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2011-04-18 22:27 +0000
            Re: Tail Call Optimization (Tail Recursion) Louis-Philippe <default@spiralix.org> - 2011-04-19 07:28 -0500
              Re: Tail Call Optimization (Tail Recursion) "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2011-04-20 04:12 +0000
                Re: Tail Call Optimization (Tail Recursion) "WJ" <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> - 2011-04-20 04:30 +0000
                  Re: Tail Call Optimization (Tail Recursion) Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2011-04-20 06:37 -0500
          Re: Tail Call Optimization (Tail Recursion) Vincent Manis <vmanis@telus.net> - 2011-04-18 19:41 -0500
            Re: Tail Call Optimization (Tail Recursion) Steve Klabnik <steve@steveklabnik.com> - 2011-04-18 20:42 -0500
              Re: Tail Call Optimization (Tail Recursion) Vincent Manis <vmanis@telus.net> - 2011-04-18 21:51 -0500
                Re: Tail Call Optimization (Tail Recursion) Michael Edgar <adgar@carboni.ca> - 2011-04-18 22:12 -0500
                Re: Tail Call Optimization (Tail Recursion) Steve Klabnik <steve@steveklabnik.com> - 2011-04-19 08:48 -0500
                  Re: Tail Call Optimization (Tail Recursion) Brian Candler <b.candler@pobox.com> - 2011-04-19 08:56 -0500
                    Re: Tail Call Optimization (Tail Recursion) Steve Klabnik <steve@steveklabnik.com> - 2011-04-19 10:07 -0500
    Re: Tail Call Optimization (Tail Recursion) Steve Klabnik <steve@steveklabnik.com> - 2011-04-18 12:39 -0500

#3086 — Tail Call Optimization (Tail Recursion)

I did some googling to find out if Ruby supports tail call optimization,
as I wanted to write tail-recursive functions. All posts I found
indicated that 1.9 supports this, but it is not enabled by default.
However, all those posts were about two years old, so I'm wondering what
is the current situation: do I still need to upgrade to 1.9 to get that
capability? Or is there something in 1.8 I can enable?

-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

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#3109

Terry Michaels wrote in post #993440:
> I did some googling to find out if Ruby supports tail call optimization,
> as I wanted to write tail-recursive functions. All posts I found
> indicated that 1.9 supports this, but it is not enabled by default.
> However, all those posts were about two years old, so I'm wondering what
> is the current situation: do I still need to upgrade to 1.9 to get that
> capability? Or is there something in 1.8 I can enable?

Couldn't you test that by creating two recursive functions: one with a 
tail call and one without, and then benchmarking them?

-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

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#3112

7stud -- wrote:

> Terry Michaels wrote in post #993440:
> > I did some googling to find out if Ruby supports tail call optimization,
> > as I wanted to write tail-recursive functions. All posts I found
> > indicated that 1.9 supports this, but it is not enabled by default.
> > However, all those posts were about two years old, so I'm wondering what
> > is the current situation: do I still need to upgrade to 1.9 to get that
> > capability? Or is there something in 1.8 I can enable?
> 
> Couldn't you test that by creating two recursive functions: one with a 
> tail call and one without, and then benchmarking them?

def fib n, a = 0, b = 1
  if n == 0
    b
  else
    a, b = b, a + b
    fib n - 1, a, b
  end
end

1.upto(9){|n|
  p [n, fib(n)]
}

p fib( 50_000 )

  ==>

[1, 1]
[2, 2]
[3, 3]
[4, 5]
[5, 8]
[6, 13]
[7, 21]
[8, 34]
[9, 55]
try4.rb:23:in `fib': stack level too deep (SystemStackError)
        from try4.rb:23:in `fib'
        from try4.rb:31


irb(main):004:0> VERSION
=> "1.8.7"

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#3121

[Note:  parts of this message were removed to make it a legal post.]

it seems like fib(50000) is not only too big for MRI ruby, but also Python
and Lua and Rubinius panic on it...

jRuby also complains but points to instructions to increase the stack...

otherways, I have MacRuby, Racket and Haskell in their tail recursive fib
solving routine, no results yet but all are still working...

2011/4/18 WJ <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com>

> 7stud -- wrote:
>
> > Terry Michaels wrote in post #993440:
> > > I did some googling to find out if Ruby supports tail call
> optimization,
> > > as I wanted to write tail-recursive functions. All posts I found
> > > indicated that 1.9 supports this, but it is not enabled by default.
> > > However, all those posts were about two years old, so I'm wondering
> what
> > > is the current situation: do I still need to upgrade to 1.9 to get that
> > > capability? Or is there something in 1.8 I can enable?
> >
> > Couldn't you test that by creating two recursive functions: one with a
> > tail call and one without, and then benchmarking them?
>
> def fib n, a = 0, b = 1
>  if n == 0
>    b
>  else
>    a, b = b, a + b
>    fib n - 1, a, b
>  end
> end
>
> 1.upto(9){|n|
>  p [n, fib(n)]
> }
>
> p fib( 50_000 )
>
>  ==>
>
> [1, 1]
> [2, 2]
> [3, 3]
> [4, 5]
> [5, 8]
> [6, 13]
> [7, 21]
> [8, 34]
> [9, 55]
> try4.rb:23:in `fib': stack level too deep (SystemStackError)
>        from try4.rb:23:in `fib'
>        from try4.rb:31
>
>
> irb(main):004:0> VERSION
> => "1.8.7"
>
>

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#3124

Louis-Philippe wrote:

> 
> otherways, I have MacRuby, Racket and Haskell in their tail recursive fib
> solving routine, no results yet but all are still working...

I'm surprised that they are still working. Gambit Scheme takes
very little time for this.

(define (fib n a b)
  (if (zero? n)
    b
    (fib (- n 1) b (+ a b))))

(time
  (let ((bigfib (fib 50000 0 1)))
    #t))

  ==>

    453 ms real time
    454 ms cpu time (438 user, 16 system)
    762 collections accounting for 141 ms real time (125 user, 16 system)
    119074992 bytes allocated
    no minor faults
    no major faults

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#3161

[Note:  parts of this message were removed to make it a legal post.]

>
>
> I'm surprised that they are still working. Gambit Scheme takes
> very little time for this.
>
>
and they still are ;)  as I was not using the same implementation of fib...
 mine was not tail recursive:

def fib(n)
  if n > 1
    fib(n-1) + fib(n-2)
  else
    n
  end
end

opposed to the tail recursive implementation cited above:

def tail_fib n, a = 0, b = 1
 if n == 0
   b
 else
   a, b = b, a + b
   tail_fib n - 1, a, b
 end
end

the thing is the tail recursive one doesn't really yield the full sequence
as it omits the 0, and so:

fib(30)          => 832040
tail_fib(30)    => 1346269

anyway, it's not that relevant in the current scope, except that with this
tail recursive implementation it can be confirmed that MRI, Rubinius and
JRuby again fail to complete, while MacRuby does just fine.

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#3206

Louis-Philippe wrote:

> the thing is the tail recursive one doesn't really yield the full sequence
> as it omits the 0, and so:
> 
> fib(30)          => 832040
> tail_fib(30)    => 1346269


Corrected:

;;  Gambit Scheme

(define (fib n)
  (define (%fib n a b)
    (if (= 1 n)
      b
      (%fib (- n 1) b (+ a b))))
  (%fib n 0 1))

(println "30th fibonacci number is " (fib 30))

(define bigfib 0)
(time
  (set! bigfib (fib 50000)))
(let* ((str (number->string bigfib))
       (len (string-length str)))
  (println "Result of (fib 50000) has " len " digits:")
  (println (substring str 0 9) " ... " (substring str (- len 9) len)))

  ==>

30th fibonacci number is 832040
(time (set! bigfib (fib 50000)))
    562 ms real time
    516 ms cpu time (500 user, 16 system)
    807 collections accounting for 157 ms real time (188 user, 0 system)
    119070200 bytes allocated
    no minor faults
    no major faults
Result of (fib 50000) has 10450 digits:
107777348 ... 373553125 

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#3207

WJ wrote:

> (time (set! bigfib (fib 50000)))
>     562 ms real time
>     516 ms cpu time (500 user, 16 system)

This Ruby version runs in about 0.6 seconds:

def fib n
  a,b = 0,1
  2.upto(n){
    a,b = b, a+b
  }
  b
end

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#3236

On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 6:35 AM, WJ <w_a_x_man@yahoo.com> wrote:
> WJ wrote:
>
>> (time (set! bigfib (fib 50000)))
>>     562 ms real time
>>     516 ms cpu time (500 user, 16 system)
>
> This Ruby version runs in about 0.6 seconds:
>
> def fib n
>  a,b = 0,1
>  2.upto(n){
>    a,b = b, a+b
>  }
>  b
> end

Just for the fun of it a version with a Hash as "function" for faster
repeated access.

13:35:36 Temp$ ruby19 fib.rb
                     user     system      total        real
0 def(50000)     0.187000   0.000000   0.187000 (  0.184000)
0 hash[50000]    0.313000   0.047000   0.360000 (  0.350000)
0 def(40000)     0.234000   0.000000   0.234000 (  0.241000)
0 hash[40000]    0.000000   0.000000   0.000000 (  0.000000)
1 def(50000)     0.359000   0.000000   0.359000 (  0.361000)
1 hash[50000]    0.000000   0.000000   0.000000 (  0.000000)
1 def(40000)     0.250000   0.000000   0.250000 (  0.240000)
1 hash[40000]    0.000000   0.000000   0.000000 (  0.000000)
2 def(50000)     0.360000   0.000000   0.360000 (  0.365000)
2 hash[50000]    0.000000   0.000000   0.000000 (  0.000000)
2 def(40000)     0.234000   0.000000   0.234000 (  0.240000)
2 hash[40000]    0.000000   0.000000   0.000000 (  0.000000)
3 def(50000)     0.375000   0.000000   0.375000 (  0.363000)
3 hash[50000]    0.000000   0.000000   0.000000 (  0.000000)
3 def(40000)     0.235000   0.000000   0.235000 (  0.239000)
3 hash[40000]    0.000000   0.000000   0.000000 (  0.000000)
4 def(50000)     0.359000   0.000000   0.359000 (  0.357000)
4 hash[50000]    0.000000   0.000000   0.000000 (  0.000000)
4 def(40000)     0.234000   0.000000   0.234000 (  0.241000)
4 hash[40000]    0.000000   0.000000   0.000000 (  0.000000)
13:35:53 Temp$ cat -n fib.rb
     1
     2  require 'benchmark'
     3
     4  def fib n
     5   a,b = 0,1
     6   2.upto(n){
     7     a,b = b, a+b
     8   }
     9   b
    10  end
    11
    12  f2 = Hash.new do |h,n|
    13    l = nil
    14
    15    (h.keys.max + 1).upto n do |i|
    16      h[i] = l = h[i-1] + h[i-2]
    17    end
    18
    19    l
    20  end.merge(0=>0, 1=>1)
    21
    22  Benchmark.bm 15 do |x|
    23    5.times do |i|
    24      [50_000, 40_000].each do |n|
    25        x.report "#{i} def(#{n})" do
    26          fib n
    27        end
    28
    29        x.report "#{i} hash[#{n}]" do
    30          f2[n]
    31        end
    32      end
    33    end
    34
    35  end
13:35:56 Temp$

Cheers

robert


-- 
remember.guy do |as, often| as.you_can - without end
http://blog.rubybestpractices.com/

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#3127

On 2011-04-18, at 13:40, Louis-Philippe wrote:

> it seems like fib(50000) is not only too big for MRI ruby, but also Python
> and Lua and Rubinius panic on it...
There was some traffic on the Python mailing list maybe a year ago, it seems that Python will not implement TR optimization in the near (or likely far) future; Python's BDFL seems unconvinced of its value. AFAIK no TR PEP has ever been written. Lua's TR is very specific, I believe the recursive call  has to stand as a statement on its own. When I tried this with Lua 5.2.0 (alpha), I saw every evidence of TR optimization.

> function fib(n)
>>   local function fib1(n, a, b)
>>     if n == 0 then
>>       return b
>>     else
>>       a, b = b, a + b
>>       return fib1(n - 1, a, b) 
>>     end
>>   end
>>   return fib1(n, 0, 1)
>> end
> print(fib(1), fib(3), fib(10), fib(100), fib(1000), fib(10000))
1	3	89	5.7314784401382e+20	7.0330367711423e+208	inf
> print(fib(1000000))
inf

TR optimization can't easily be done on the JVM (and probably on .NET), because it interferes with the code verification process the JVM does. Accordingly, I doubt TR can be made mandatory for Ruby implementations, which is what I'd like. However, a boolean function or built-in constant that says whether it's performed would be very nice, so one can test this before running a program. 

-- vincent

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#3128

[Note:  parts of this message were removed to make it a legal post.]

Guido has said that any interpreter that implements TCO is not Python.

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#3131

On 2011-04-18, at 18:42, Steve Klabnik wrote:
> Guido has said that any interpreter that implements TCO is not Python.

I recall that quote, and it totally mystifies me. Of course, he IS BDFL, and has the right to say what is and is not Python. But it seems like a very peculiar comment, and, based on some of the message traffic I saw at the time, he seems to misunderstand what this optimization is. There are good reasons (relating to the JVM, which I mentioned earlier) why one might decide NOT to make it mandatory, but his absolute refusal seems somewhat doctrinaire to me. 

If every environment in which Ruby (or Python) runs supported TCO, then there would be little reason to ban it. If that isn't practical, then a way of discerning whether it's supported in a given implementation seems appropriate.

That said, very few tail recursive methods would likely be written in Ruby, given the many other fine ways of looping. So my reason for wanting it has more to do with a small set of cases where it's more expressive than other techniques, rather than something that substantially changes the way we write programs. 

In reality, the more useful benefit of TCO comes when it's not a recursive procedure, but simply invoking another method, and thus using less stack. That leads, for example, to a very nice and clean way of writing state machines, for example. 

-- vincent

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#3133

On Apr 18, 2011, at 10:51 PM, Vincent Manis wrote:

> In reality, the more useful benefit of TCO comes when it's not a recursive procedure, but simply invoking another method, and thus using less stack. That leads, for example, to a very nice and clean way of writing state machines, for example. 

This is the most compelling argument for me, especially regarding Ruby: modern
Ruby approaches emphasize heavy refactoring to small methods, and since nearly
everything else you do is a method call, I'm willing to bet TCO could kick in a fair
amount in the tail of those small methods. It might add up. But that's just my gut
instinct; I've never toyed with the TCO options.

Michael Edgar
adgar@carboni.ca
http://carboni.ca/

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#3171

[Note:  parts of this message were removed to make it a legal post.]

>
> I recall that quote, and it totally mystifies me.


He makes a sensible argument, it's just not the particular set of tradeoffs
that I'd choose. But that's why I don't use Python, and he does. :)

Essentially, his argument boils down to this: with TCO, you can write
programs that _need_ TCO to function. And then you have Python code that
works on some interpreters and not others. And that's bad.

In reality, the more useful benefit of TCO comes when it's not a recursive
> procedure, but simply invoking another method, and thus using less stack.


This, along with what Michael says, is also a pretty nice thing. Fits the
'optimization' name much better. :)

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#3172

Steve Klabnik wrote in post #993760:
> In reality, the more useful benefit of TCO comes when it's not a
> recursive
>> procedure, but simply invoking another method, and thus using less stack.

Of course you will then lose the backtrace. Also, stack is cheap to 
allocate and release, and the amount used will be small unless your code 
is hundreds of method calls deep.

-- 
Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.

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#3175

[Note:  parts of this message were removed to make it a legal post.]

There are techniques to retain a backtrace, even with TCO.

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#3111

[Note:  parts of this message were removed to make it a legal post.]

There's a flag that you can enable to turn it on.

Also, http://timelessrepo.com/tailin-ruby

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