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Groups > comp.lang.python > #72180 > unrolled thread

Python 3 is killing Python

Started byLarry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com>
First post2014-05-28 14:23 -0500
Last post2014-05-31 09:28 -0800
Articles 20 on this page of 324 — 57 participants

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Contents

  Python 3 is killing Python Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 14:23 -0500
    Re: Python 3 is killing Python Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2014-05-28 21:39 +0200
    Re: Python 3 is killing Python Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-28 22:41 +0300
    Re: Python 3 is killing Python Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-28 12:49 -0700
      Re: Python 3 is killing Python Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 14:58 -0500
        Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-29 03:49 +0000
          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-28 21:23 -0700
          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2014-05-29 06:38 -0500
      Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-29 06:15 +1000
      Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-28 21:24 +0100
        Re: Python 3 is killing Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-05-28 23:14 -0700
        Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-14 15:12 -0700
          Re: Python 3 is killing Python mm0fmf <none@mailinator.com> - 2014-07-14 23:37 +0100
          Re: Python 3 is killing Python MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-07-14 23:47 +0100
            Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-14 18:00 -0700
              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-15 11:18 +1000
          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-15 09:28 +1000
            Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-14 18:54 -0700
              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-15 12:11 +1000
                Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-14 21:18 -0700
                  Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-15 14:40 +1000
                  Re: Python 3 is killing Python Martin S <shieldfire@gmail.com> - 2014-07-15 06:31 +0200
                  Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-15 05:41 +0000
                    Re: Python 3 is killing Python Tim Roberts <timr@probo.com> - 2014-07-16 20:18 -0700
                      Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 22:15 -0700
                        Re: Python 3 is killing Python Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-07-17 17:36 +1200
                          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 15:45 +1000
                        Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 15:45 +1000
                  Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-15 08:05 +0100
                  Re: Python 3 is killing Python alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-07-15 12:30 +0000
          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-15 00:59 +0100
          Re: Python 3 is killing Python alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-07-15 12:19 +0000
            Re: Python 3 is killing Python MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-07-15 15:50 +0100
              Re: Python 3 is killing Python alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-07-15 17:38 +0000
                Re: Python 3 is killing Python Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-07-15 18:23 +0000
            Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-15 16:35 +0100
      Re: Python 3 is killing Python Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-05-29 08:38 +1000
        Re: Python 3 is killing Python Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-28 16:22 -0700
        Re: Python 3 is killing Python beliavsky@aol.com - 2014-08-06 06:47 -0700
          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-08-06 14:42 -0400
            Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-07 12:42 +1000
          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-07 13:37 +1000
            Re: Python 3 is killing Python Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-08-07 21:07 -0400
      Re: Python 3 is killing Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-05-28 21:57 -0400
    Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2014-05-31 12:07 +0200
      Re: Python 3 is killing Python Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2014-05-31 13:09 +0200
        Re: Python 3 is killing Python Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2014-05-31 13:22 +0200
        Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2014-06-01 04:57 +0200
          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 13:35 +1000
            Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-31 21:11 -0700
            Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2014-06-01 13:38 +0200
          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2014-06-01 07:01 +0100
            Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-06-01 07:52 +0100
            Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2014-06-01 13:41 +0200
              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-06-01 12:53 +0100
              Re: Python 3 is killing Python alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-06-01 17:21 +0000
              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2014-06-02 07:14 +0100
      Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-31 12:30 +0000
        Re: Python 3 is killing Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-05-31 08:48 -0700
          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-06-02 09:01 -0600
            Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-02 16:15 +0000
              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-06-02 12:21 -0400
                Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-03 02:30 +1000
                Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-02 16:52 +0000
                Re: Python 3 is killing Python Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2014-06-02 19:16 +0200
              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-06-02 11:53 -0600
              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-06-02 18:59 +0100
            Re: Python 3 is killing Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-06-02 23:12 -0700
              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-02 23:30 -0700
                Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-06-03 09:03 +0100
                Re: Python 3 is killing Python Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-06-03 07:22 -0400
              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2014-07-14 21:58 -0600
                Re: Python 3 is killing Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-07-15 00:23 -0700
              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-15 08:31 +0100
          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2014-07-14 21:47 -0600
          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-15 14:20 +1000
            Re: Python 3 is killing Python Fabien <fabien.maussion@gmail.com> - 2014-07-15 14:17 +0200
              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-15 23:00 +1000
                Re: Python 3 is killing Python Kevin Walzer <kw@codebykevin.com> - 2014-07-15 09:57 -0400
                  Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 00:31 +1000
                    Re: Python 3 is killing Python Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-07-15 20:38 +0300
                      Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-15 19:06 +0000
                        Re: Python 3 is killing Python Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-07-15 23:01 +0300
                          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-16 03:51 +0000
                            Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 14:20 +1000
                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-16 07:33 +0000
                            Re: Python 3 is killing Python Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-07-16 08:52 +0300
                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 16:26 +1000
                                Re: Python 3 is killing Python Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-07-16 09:44 +0300
                                  Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 16:50 +1000
                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-07-16 00:11 -0700
                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-16 07:49 +0000
                                Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 18:44 +1000
                                  Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-16 11:35 +0000
                                    Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 21:54 +1000
                                Re: Python 3 is killing Python Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-07-16 13:46 +0300
                                  Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-16 12:10 +0000
                                    Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 22:55 +1000
                                    Re: Python 3 is killing Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-07-16 06:10 -0700
                                    Re: Python 3 is killing Python Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-07-16 16:11 +0300
                                      Re: Python 3 is killing Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-07-16 06:22 -0700
                                      Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 00:04 +1000
                                        Re: Python 3 is killing Python Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-07-16 17:39 +0300
                                          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 01:23 +1000
                                            Re: Python 3 is killing Python Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-07-16 18:48 +0300
                                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 02:07 +1000
                                                Re: Python 3 is killing Python Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-07-16 19:20 +0300
                                                  Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-17 02:51 +0000
                                                    Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 13:15 +1000
                                                    Re: Python 3 is killing Python MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-07-17 12:27 +0100
                                    Re: Python 3 is killing Python "Frank Millman" <frank@chagford.com> - 2014-07-17 07:18 +0200
                                      Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-17 07:49 +0000
                                  Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-07-30 14:31 -0700
                                Re: Python 3 is killing Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-07-16 17:02 -0400
                                Re: Python 3 is killing Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-07-16 18:47 -0400
                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python "Frank Millman" <frank@chagford.com> - 2014-07-16 16:27 +0200
                                Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 15:41 -0700
                                  Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-17 00:00 +0100
                                    Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 18:16 -0700
                                      Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-17 03:14 +0000
                                        Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-17 08:17 +0100
                                        Re: Python 3 is killing Python alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2014-07-18 12:49 +1000
                                          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 20:34 -0700
                                          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-07-18 14:17 +0000
                                      Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 13:20 +1000
                                      Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-17 23:54 +0100
                                  Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-17 03:16 +0000
                                    Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 21:47 -0700
                                      Re: Python 3 is killing Python Fabien <fabien.maussion@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 12:12 +0200
                                        Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 21:12 +1000
                                        Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 11:15 -0700
                                          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-18 04:27 +1000
                                          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-07-17 21:44 +0300
                                            Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 19:24 -0700
                                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-18 12:39 +1000
                                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 21:40 -0600
                                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-07-18 08:24 +0300
                                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-18 08:34 +0100
                                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-07-18 14:19 +0000
                                                Re: Python 3 is killing Python Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2014-07-18 08:35 -0600
                                                  Re: Python 3 is killing Python Torsten Bronger <bronger@physik.rwth-aachen.de> - 2014-07-18 17:25 +0200
                                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-07-18 19:45 -0400
                                          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-17 20:06 +0100
                                          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Emile van Sebille <emile@fenx.com> - 2014-07-17 12:22 -0700
                                          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-17 21:37 +0100
                                          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-07-17 17:30 -0400
                                          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-07-17 20:13 -0400
                                            Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-18 18:38 +0000
                                          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-18 01:26 +0100
                                            Re: Python 3 is killing Python alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2014-07-18 12:54 +1000
                                          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Andrew Berg <aberg010@my.hennepintech.edu> - 2014-07-17 19:45 -0500
                                            Re: Python 3 is killing Python alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2014-07-18 13:01 +1000
                                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-18 16:45 +0100
                                          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-18 12:15 +1000
                                            Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 20:37 -0700
                                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-18 15:34 +1000
                                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-07-18 02:21 -0600
                                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-18 18:27 +1000
                                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-07-18 16:46 +0100
                                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-18 16:49 +0100
                                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-18 16:50 +0100
                                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-18 17:22 +0100
                                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-07-18 21:27 -0400
                                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-07-18 21:21 -0400
                                                Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-19 09:29 -0700
                                                  Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-20 02:41 +1000
                                                  Re: Python 3 is killing Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-07-19 12:00 -0600
                                                  Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-19 13:39 -0700
                                                    Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-20 09:13 +1000
                                                  Improving Idle (was Re: Python 3 ...) Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-07-19 16:45 -0400
                                                    Re: Improving Idle (was Re: Python 3 ...) Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-19 18:31 -0700
                                                      Re: Improving Idle (was Re: Python 3 ...) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-20 11:42 +1000
                                                      Re: Improving Idle (was Re: Python 3 ...) Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-20 12:40 +0100
                                                      Idle's Shell: prompts and indents (was ...) Idle users please read Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-07-20 17:52 -0400
                                                        Re: Idle's Shell: prompts and indents (was ...) Idle users please read Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-20 18:22 -0700
                                                          Re: Idle's Shell: prompts and indents (was ...) Idle users please read Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-21 11:32 +1000
                                                          Re: Idle's Shell: prompts and indents (was ...) Idle users please read Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-07-20 23:49 -0400
                                                      Re: Idle's Shell: prompts and indents (was ...) Idle users please read Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-21 10:55 +1000
                                                      Re: Idle's Shell: prompts and indents (was ...) Idle users please read Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-07-20 23:28 -0400
                                                      Re: Idle's Shell: prompts and indents (was ...) Idle users please read Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-21 13:34 +1000
                                                      Re: Idle's Shell: prompts and indents (was ...) Idle users please read Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-07-21 05:00 -0400
                                                        Re: Idle's Shell: prompts and indents (was ...) Idle users please read wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-07-21 13:00 -0700
                                                      Re: Idle's Shell: prompts and indents (was ...) Idle users please read Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-21 20:56 +1000
                                                      Re: Idle's Shell: prompts and indents (was ...) Idle users please read Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-07-21 14:30 -0400
                                                      Re: Idle's Shell: prompts and indents (was ...) Idle users please read Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-22 04:35 +1000
                                                  Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-19 15:50 -0700
                                                    Re: Python 3 is killing Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-07-19 19:23 -0400
                                                  Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-20 09:10 +1000
                                                  Re: Improving Idle (was Re: Python 3 ...) Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-21 02:54 +0100
                                          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-18 08:24 +0100
                                          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-18 18:20 +0000
                                            Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-18 19:31 +0100
                                            Re: Python 3 is killing Python MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-07-18 20:44 +0100
                                            Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-18 14:37 -0700
                                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-07-18 18:09 -0400
                                              Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-19 07:28 +0000
                                                Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] "C.D. Reimer" <chris@cdreimer.com> - 2014-07-19 11:08 -0700
                                                Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-07-19 14:31 -0400
                                                  Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-20 01:23 +0000
                                                    Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-20 11:39 +1000
                                                    Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] "C.D. Reimer" <chris@cdreimer.com> - 2014-07-19 18:53 -0700
                                                      Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] CHIN Dihedral <dihedral88888@gmail.com> - 2014-07-21 08:37 -0700
                                                    Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2014-07-20 14:18 +1000
                                                Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2014-07-20 07:50 +1000
                                                Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-20 09:19 +1000
                                                Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2014-07-20 10:41 +1000
                                                Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] "C.D. Reimer" <chris@cdreimer.com> - 2014-07-19 18:24 -0700
                                                Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] TP <wingusr@gmail.com> - 2014-07-19 19:03 -0700
                                                Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] "C.D. Reimer" <chris@cdreimer.com> - 2014-07-19 20:10 -0700
                                                Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2014-08-01 13:10 +0200
                                                  Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-01 21:22 +1000
                                                    Re: Python and IDEs Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-08-01 15:19 +0300
                                                      Re: Python and IDEs Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-01 22:30 +1000
                                                      Re: Python and IDEs Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-01 23:10 +1000
                                                        Re: Python and IDEs Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-01 23:30 +1000
                                                        Re: Python and IDEs Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-08-01 18:13 +0300
                                                    Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2014-08-06 14:38 +0200
                                                      Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-06 22:51 +1000
                                                        Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2014-08-11 11:08 +0200
                                                  Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Nicholas Cole <nicholas.cole@gmail.com> - 2014-08-01 15:28 +0100
                                                    Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2014-08-06 14:47 +0200
                                                      Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-07 13:32 +1000
                                                        Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2014-08-11 11:08 +0200
                                                          Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-08-11 09:37 +0000
                                                            Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-11 20:20 +1000
                                                          Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-08-11 14:45 +0100
                                                          Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-08-11 18:42 +0000
                                                          Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-12 10:11 +1000
                                                            Re: Quoting and attribution (was: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python]) Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-08-11 19:27 -0500
                                                              Re: Quoting and attribution (was: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python]) Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-12 02:07 +0000
                                                                Re: Quoting and attribution (was: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python]) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-12 12:13 +1000
                                                                Re: Quoting and attribution (was: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python]) Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-08-11 21:23 -0500
                                                            Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2014-08-13 12:42 +0200
                                                              Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-13 23:35 +1000
                                                              Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-08-13 16:51 +0100
                                                  Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-02 00:39 +1000
                                                    Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-08-02 11:14 +1200
                                                      Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-02 09:50 +1000
                                                      Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Olaf Hering <olaf@aepfle.de> - 2014-08-02 09:10 +0200
                                                        Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-08-02 23:38 +1200
                                                  Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Dietmar Schwertberger <maillist@schwertberger.de> - 2014-08-01 19:16 +0200
                                                    Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2014-08-06 14:47 +0200
                                                      Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-08-11 18:39 +0000
                                                        Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2014-08-13 13:46 +0200
                                                  Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2014-08-01 14:22 -0600
                                                  Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-08-01 22:09 +0100
                                                    Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-08-02 12:00 +1200
                                                      Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-02 10:20 +1000
                                                        Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-08-02 23:33 +1200
                                                          Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-02 23:01 +1000
                                                            Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-08-03 12:01 +1200
                                                              Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-03 11:12 +1000
                                                      Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-08-02 14:55 +0100
                                                        Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-08-03 12:04 +1200
                                                          Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Dietmar Schwertberger <maillist@schwertberger.de> - 2014-08-03 09:46 +0200
                                                      Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-08-02 10:27 -0400
                                                        Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-08-03 12:20 +1200
                                                  Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-02 09:48 +1000
                                                Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Duncan Booth <duncan.booth@invalid.invalid> - 2014-08-05 13:29 +0000
                                                  Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-06 02:50 +1000
                                                    Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Duncan Booth <duncan.booth@invalid.invalid> - 2014-08-05 19:25 +0000
                                                      Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] TP <wingusr@gmail.com> - 2014-08-05 14:28 -0700
                                          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-07-18 19:26 -0400
                                          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Kevin Walzer <kw@codebykevin.com> - 2014-08-03 21:21 -0400
                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 01:18 +1000
                                Re: Python 3 is killing Python Javier <nospam@nospam.com> - 2014-07-16 17:33 +0000
                                  Re: Python 3 is killing Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 11:50 -0600
                                    Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-17 03:33 +0000
                                  Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-17 04:25 +0000
                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python "Neil D. Cerutti" <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2014-07-16 11:48 -0400
                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-16 18:34 +0100
                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python "Frank Millman" <frank@chagford.com> - 2014-07-17 08:31 +0200
                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 16:41 +1000
                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python "Frank Millman" <frank@chagford.com> - 2014-07-17 09:09 +0200
                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 17:59 +1000
                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Glenn Linderman <v+python@g.nevcal.com> - 2014-08-01 23:18 -0700
                      Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-15 21:24 +0100
                      Re: Python 3 is killing Python Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2014-07-15 13:47 -0700
                      Re: Python 3 is killing Python Abhiram R <abhi.darkness@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 03:07 +0530
                        Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-16 02:08 +0000
                      Re: Python 3 is killing Python Abhiram R <abhi.darkness@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 03:05 +0530
                      Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-15 22:49 +0100
                      Re: Python 3 is killing Python Abhiram R <abhi.darkness@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 03:43 +0530
                        Re: Python 3 is killing Python Kevin Walzer <kw@codebykevin.com> - 2014-07-15 18:30 -0400
                          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Abhiram R <abhi.darkness@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 04:10 +0530
                            Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-15 16:53 -0700
                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-07-16 02:57 +0100
                                Re: Python 3 is killing Python Tim Roberts <timr@probo.com> - 2014-07-16 20:20 -0700
                                  Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 13:38 +1000
                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Abhiram R <abhi.darkness@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 09:07 +0530
                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-16 09:18 +0100
                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick <kwpolska@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 12:20 +0200
                              Re: Python 3 is killing Python Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-07-17 14:17 +1000
                          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Joshua Landau <joshua@landau.ws> - 2014-07-16 00:45 +0100
                          Interleaved posting style for text discussion forums (was: Python 3 is killing Python) Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-07-17 14:02 +1000
                      Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-15 23:38 +0100
                        Re: Python 3 is killing Python Kevin Walzer <kw@codebykevin.com> - 2014-07-15 20:43 -0400
                          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-07-15 23:05 -0400
                            Re: Python 3 is killing Python Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-07-16 13:59 +0000
                    Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-15 11:01 -0700
                      Re: Python 3 is killing Python Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-07-15 21:08 +0300
                        Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-15 18:57 +0000
                          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-07-15 22:49 +0300
                      Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-15 18:53 +0000
                        Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-15 13:20 -0700
                          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-07-15 14:46 -0600
                      Re: Python 3 is killing Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-07-15 12:53 -0600
                  Re: Python 3 is killing Python Anders Wegge Keller <wegge@wegge.dk> - 2014-07-15 17:02 +0200
                  Re: Python 3 is killing Python Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-07-15 15:43 +0000
                  Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-15 16:44 +0100
                  Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 01:48 +1000
                  Re: Python 3 is killing Python alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 15:48 +1000
                    Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-17 07:03 +0000
                    Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 10:36 -0700
                      Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-18 03:52 +1000
                        Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 11:38 -0700
                          Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-18 04:48 +1000
                      Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-18 18:01 +0000
              Re: Python 3 is killing Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-07-15 06:33 -0700
        Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2014-06-01 05:00 +0200
      Re: Python 3 is killing Python Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-31 15:44 +0300
        Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2014-06-01 05:05 +0200
          Re: Python 3 is killing Python pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> - 2014-07-12 10:50 -0700
    Re: Python 3 is killing Python Deb Wyatt <codemonkey@inbox.com> - 2014-05-31 09:28 -0800

Page 16 of 17 — ← Prev page 1 … 14 15 [16] 17  Next page →


#74497

FromMarko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net>
Date2014-07-15 21:08 +0300
Message-ID<87r41m4hrw.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
In reply to#74496
Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com>:

> So in other words, "we're" know now we made a bad decision by creating
> this Python3000 thing, because nobody seems to be jumping on the
> bandwagon, but instead of admitting we were wrong, we'll just cling to
> our new shiny *THING* and hope *EVENTUALLY*, if we brow-beat *ENOUGH*
> people, that well, *MAYBE* most of them will embrace this *ABORTION*
> and join us.

I agree it was a grave mistake. However, what's done is done. Instead of
fighting it or defending it, just cope with it and move on.


Marko

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#74501

FromSteven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
Date2014-07-15 18:57 +0000
Message-ID<53c579ad$0$9505$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to#74497
On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 21:08:03 +0300, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:

> I agree it was a grave mistake.

On what basis do you believe it was a mistake?



-- 
Steven

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#74503

FromMarko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net>
Date2014-07-15 22:49 +0300
Message-ID<87mwca4d3g.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>
In reply to#74501
Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>:

> On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 21:08:03 +0300, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>
>> I agree it was a grave mistake.
>
> On what basis do you believe it was a mistake?

The supposed flaws in Python 2 weren't a good enough reason to break
backward-compatibility.


Marko

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#74499

FromSteven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
Date2014-07-15 18:53 +0000
Message-ID<53c578a7$0$9505$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to#74496
On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 11:01:53 -0700, Rick Johnson wrote:

> Are you so foolish as to believe that if code runs cleanly *immediately*
> after translating via "2to3", that the code is now completely free from
> translation bugs?

If your code has a thorough set of unittests that continue to pass, then 
changes are better than excellent that it is free of translation bugs.


> You act as if 2to3 is some "magical" code that can root out every bug no
> matter how subtle.

Of course not. 2to3 certainly won't remove bugs that already exist in 
your code. It will happily translate them to version 3 dialect for you, 
so you can have the fun of fixing them yourself.


[...snip foolish grandstanding...]

>> Ultimately, the solution is simply to keep Python 2.7 around for a good
>> long time, until the carrot of new Py3 features becomes attractive
>> enough for it to be worth switching. And if that's not before 2020, no
>> problem. Even if it's after 2020, there's a fair chance that you'll
>> still be able to run your 2.7 code -
> 
> So in other words, "we're" know now we made a bad decision by creating
> this Python3000 thing, because nobody seems to be jumping on the
> bandwagon,

Don't be childish.

There are still people using Python 2.3. There are even a few people -- 
just a handful -- happily using Python 1.5, which is probably older than 
you. People have all sorts of reasons for sticking to what works, instead 
of jumping from version to version and having to deal with code churn 
every 18 months. And they have the right to do so. No adult expect them 
to upgrade just because there is a new version out.

Redhat still offers commercial support for Python 2.4. I believe that 
Python 2.3 has only *just* come out of commercial support a few months 
ago. Some people will upgrade, some are happy to keep using a product 
that works, and require no support. The choice is theirs.

The same will apply to Python 2.7. The Python developers have promised to 
give 2.7 extended support until 2020, and Red Hat has committed to 
extended commercial support until 2023. Capitalism at work: Red Hat 
expects to be able to make money from supporting this for nearly another 
decade, and good on them.

[...snip childish insults...]

>> it's just that there's no promise (at the moment) of patches, even
>> security patches, from python.org.
> 
> Oh yes, i see... when brow-beating does not work, we adopt the
> malevolent tactics of $MS  and $OS by allowing security holes and virus
> infections to riddle the code base obsolete.

No software developer is obliged to support their software forever, 
especially if they are giving it away for free, and writing it out of 
love. Nobody but nobody is supporting Python 1.1 any more, no matter how 
many security holes it has. So what? Who cares?

Python 2.7 is open source software, if you think that there is a market 
for providing support for it for the next twenty years, go right ahead. 
You can even charge money for it.

But of course you won't. Because it's much easier to bitch and moan and 
pretend to be oh-so-superior than to actually write code, fix bugs, and 
provide support.



-- 
Steven

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#74505

FromRick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com>
Date2014-07-15 13:20 -0700
Message-ID<f3f1f33c-b3dc-41b7-916a-ee35fe85ba9a@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#74499
On Tuesday, July 15, 2014 1:53:27 PM UTC-5, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> No software developer is obliged to support their software
> forever, especially if they are giving it away for free
> [...] Nobody but nobody is supporting Python 1.1 any more,
> no matter how many security holes it has.

Of course not, Python 1.1 is pre-1999, heck, it's so old i
cannot find a release date for it, and it's probably
completely useless in today's world

    BUT THAT IS NOT MY POINT!

What you fail to realize is that the *MAJORITY* of Python
programmers cut their teeth on the Python 2.x line, and as
such, the majority of today's Python programmers are still
using the Python 2.x line -- anything to with Python 1.1
might as well be ancient history, it's irrelevant due to age
and it's abysmal utilization.

Python's popularity started increasing significantly only
*AFTER* Python 2 was rolled out. If you look at the TIOBE
stats (2003-2013), Python made the *MOST* improvements in
the years of 2007 and 2013

    PYTHON-2.0.1 WAS RELEASED ON JUNE 22, 2001

But nothing *significant* happened until Python-2.5

    PYTHON-2.5.0 WAS RELEASED ON SEPT. 19, 2006
    
Which coincides with the spike of 2007!

Now begs the question, what caused the 2013 spike? Simple,
the 2013 spike was a result of all the *BUZZ* of Python-3000,
NOT *BECAUSE* OF PYTHON-3000, but, because of the *BUZZ*.

Remember, GvR went on an extensive campaign to sale this
"new and improved" snake oil, with all his Google speeches
and evangelizing and whatnot. But very quickly the
"curiosity" and "excitement" turned into the "summer of
discontent".

I remember watching some speeches where the audience was not
at all pleased with the breaks and "great new
functionality".

The blogisphere has been set ablaze with bemoaning of
breaking code over such "miniscule" things as lazy
iterators, print, input,etc... and the misguided attempts to
"sanitize" Python of functional programming!
    
    SHOULD I DRAW YOU A "MAP"?
    
I think we can all agree that the roll out of Python3 was
not as "smooth" as the dictator has expected

Also, keep in mind that most of the tutorials and books out
there are written for Python 2.x, whereas Python 3.x is very
limited[1]. Too many noobs have downloaded Python3 and
whilst unwittingly following a "Googled tutorial" or book,
get hammered with esoteric exception messages and then
quickly give up and move on to another language, unaware
that the versions are incompatible in many respects.

Kind of sad when you realize that most of the functions that
were broken are the same functions a noob is using during "day
one" (print, input, etc...)

2.x also has years and years of *MATURE* third party modules
for the taking, whereas Python 3.x is quite disappointing[1].

> Python 2.7 is open source software, if you think that
> there is a market for providing support for it for the
> next twenty years, go right ahead

There *WILL* be a market for Python for the next ten or so
years no matter what happens to Python3! Since the vast
majority of Python code (in the wild) is written in the 2.x
line (most likely written using Python-2.5), python-3000 was
a lame duck before it was even released!

    print("QUACK!")


[1]: yes, yes, i know there are 3.x resources but no where even
     close to 2.x!

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]


#74510

FromIan Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com>
Date2014-07-15 14:46 -0600
Message-ID<mailman.11851.1405460324.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#74505
On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 2:20 PM, Rick Johnson
<rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 15, 2014 1:53:27 PM UTC-5, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
>> No software developer is obliged to support their software
>> forever, especially if they are giving it away for free
>> [...] Nobody but nobody is supporting Python 1.1 any more,
>> no matter how many security holes it has.
>
> Of course not, Python 1.1 is pre-1999, heck, it's so old i
> cannot find a release date for it, and it's probably
> completely useless in today's world
>
>     BUT THAT IS NOT MY POINT!
>
> What you fail to realize is that the *MAJORITY* of Python
> programmers cut their teeth on the Python 2.x line, and as
> such, the majority of today's Python programmers are still
> using the Python 2.x line -- anything to with Python 1.1
> might as well be ancient history, it's irrelevant due to age
> and it's abysmal utilization.

When Python 2.0 was released, the majority of Python programmers at
the time had learned on Python 1.x, and for a while the majority of
them were still using 1.x. That's the same situation you're describing
today. At some point in the future, Python 2.x will be "ancient
history" also.

> Python's popularity started increasing significantly only
> *AFTER* Python 2 was rolled out. If you look at the TIOBE
> stats (2003-2013), Python made the *MOST* improvements in
> the years of 2007 and 2013
>
>     PYTHON-2.0.1 WAS RELEASED ON JUNE 22, 2001
>
> But nothing *significant* happened until Python-2.5

Seriously? If you ask me, the changes introduced in 2.2 were a lot
more significant than anything in 2.5. 2.2 fixed the type system by
giving us new-style classes. It also added the iterator interface,
introduced generators, and removed the distinction between int and
long. All of those things were huge. What did Python 2.5 add?
Conditional expressions and the with statement, both of which are
useful but not nearly as compelling.

> Now begs the question, what caused the 2013 spike? Simple,
> the 2013 spike was a result of all the *BUZZ* of Python-3000,
> NOT *BECAUSE* OF PYTHON-3000, but, because of the *BUZZ*.

Python 3.0 was released in 2008. I don't understand why you think the
buzz surrounding that would have occurred 5 years later.

> Remember, GvR went on an extensive campaign to sale this
> "new and improved" snake oil, with all his Google speeches
> and evangelizing and whatnot. But very quickly the
> "curiosity" and "excitement" turned into the "summer of
> discontent".

No, I have no idea what you're referring to. If Guido was talking more
about Python 3 in 2012 than at any time in the six years prior, then I
for one didn't notice.

> [1]: yes, yes, i know there are 3.x resources but no where even
>      close to 2.x!

Actually, the Wall of Superpowers is showing quite a lot of green these days.

https://python3wos.appspot.com/

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#74500

FromIan Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com>
Date2014-07-15 12:53 -0600
Message-ID<mailman.11846.1405450455.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#74496
On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 12:01 PM, Rick Johnson
<rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 15, 2014 9:31:31 AM UTC-5, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> [...] That said, though, I would advise you to give 2to3 a
>> shot. You never know, it might do exactly what you need
>> right out-of-the-box and give you a 3.x-compatible
>> codebase in one hit.
>
> Ha!
>
> Are you so foolish as to believe that if code runs cleanly
> *immediately* after translating via "2to3", that the code is
> now completely free from translation bugs?
>
> You act as if 2to3 is some "magical" code that can root out
> every bug no matter how subtle. No, for those of us who care
> about our reputation, we are not about to release code that
> could blow chunks and leave egg all over our face, or worse,
> cause us to loose a contract!

This is what tests are for: so you know whether your code is working or not.

1) Run 2to3.
2) Run your test suite.
3) If there's a UI, exercise it manually.

At that point you should know how many things you need to fix. If that
number is 0, then you're basically ready to release (depending on your
test coverage and your release cycle and your overall level of comfort
with releasing the result).

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#74487

FromAnders Wegge Keller <wegge@wegge.dk>
Date2014-07-15 17:02 +0200
Message-ID<87d2d6d5rt.fsf@huddi.jernurt.dk>
In reply to#74484
Kevin Walzer <kw@codebykevin.com> writes:

> I can only think of two widely used languages in the last decade where
> there was this type of major break in binary compatibility: Perl and
> Visual Basic.

 Lua 5.1, 5.2 and 5.3 are all incompatible to some extent. It's
debatable how widely used Lua is as a stand-alone language, but the
usage is pretty widespread; it's just mostly concealed inside another
application.

-- 
/Wegge

Leder efter redundant peering af dk.*,linux.debian.*

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#74491

FromGrant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Date2014-07-15 15:43 +0000
Message-ID<lq3i66$3tg$1@reader1.panix.com>
In reply to#74484
On 2014-07-15, Kevin Walzer <kw@codebykevin.com> wrote:

> I think it's more than a tempest in a teacup.
>
> The number of language revisions that result in deliberate, code-level 
> incompatibility out there is pretty small. People rightly expect that 
> code written for version 2.x of a language will continue to work with 
> version 3.x, even if 3.x is designed to go in another direction.

I disagree.  I don't expect backwards compatability across major
version number changes.  I've been doing software development for 30
years, and that has always been a pretty common rule for the projects
I've worked on.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! I feel partially
                                  at               hydrogenated!
                              gmail.com            

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#74492

FromMark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk>
Date2014-07-15 16:44 +0100
Message-ID<mailman.11842.1405439081.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#74484
On 15/07/2014 15:31, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 15, 2014 at 11:57 PM, Kevin Walzer <kw@codebykevin.com> wrote:
>
>> I've stayed with Python 2.7 because I've seen no benefit in 3.x that
>> outweighs the hassle of going through my code line by line to make it
>> compatible.
>
> And that's fine! The python-dev team has promised that 2.7 will
> continue to be supported; that means some headaches, especially on
> Windows (the Python 2.7 support will long outlast upstream Microsoft
> support for the compiler it's built on), but it's a promise that you
> can continue to run your 2.7 code.
>
> That said, though, I would advise you to give 2to3 a shot. You never
> know, it might do exactly what you need right out-of-the-box and give
> you a 3.x-compatible codebase in one hit.
>

Or any one of

https://pypi.python.org/pypi/six/1.7.3
https://github.com/mitsuhiko/python-modernize
http://python-future.org/
https://github.com/nandoflorestan/nine

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

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#74493

FromChris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Date2014-07-16 01:48 +1000
Message-ID<mailman.11843.1405439329.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#74484
On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 1:44 AM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Or any one of
>
> https://pypi.python.org/pypi/six/1.7.3
> https://github.com/mitsuhiko/python-modernize
> http://python-future.org/
> https://github.com/nandoflorestan/nine

AIUI most of those sorts of things are designed for people maintaining
a dual-version codebase, not for making a one-time switch. But yes,
there are a variety of tools to help make the changes necessary.

ChrisA

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#74619

Fromalex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com>
Date2014-07-17 15:48 +1000
Message-ID<lq7o3p$t82$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#74484
On 15/07/2014 11:57 PM, Kevin Walzer wrote:
> The number of language revisions that result in deliberate, code-level
> incompatibility out there is pretty small. People rightly expect that
> code written for version 2.x of a language will continue to work with
> version 3.x, even if 3.x is designed to go in another direction.

PHP regularly breaks compatibility between _minor_ version releases:

http://php.net/manual/en/migration53.incompatible.php

Even more so with major releases:

http://php.net/manual/en/migration5.incompatible.php

And yet I never see anywhere near as much angst and agony as Python 3.x 
has caused.

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#74625

FromSteven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info>
Date2014-07-17 07:03 +0000
Message-ID<53c7752a$0$29897$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to#74619
On Thu, 17 Jul 2014 15:48:38 +1000, alex23 wrote:

> On 15/07/2014 11:57 PM, Kevin Walzer wrote:
>> The number of language revisions that result in deliberate, code-level
>> incompatibility out there is pretty small. People rightly expect that
>> code written for version 2.x of a language will continue to work with
>> version 3.x, even if 3.x is designed to go in another direction.
> 
> PHP regularly breaks compatibility between _minor_ version releases:
> 
> http://php.net/manual/en/migration53.incompatible.php
> 
> Even more so with major releases:
> 
> http://php.net/manual/en/migration5.incompatible.php
> 
> And yet I never see anywhere near as much angst and agony as Python 3.x
> has caused.


Thank you for pointing this out! I thought that was the case with PHP, 
but I wasn't sure. Nice to have it confirmed.




-- 
Steven

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#74652

FromRick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com>
Date2014-07-17 10:36 -0700
Message-ID<feae9935-66f6-41a2-b4f3-4d5216d90aa6@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#74619
On Thursday, July 17, 2014 12:48:38 AM UTC-5, alex23 wrote:
> PHP regularly breaks compatibility between _minor_ version
> releases: [...] more so with major releases: [...] yet I
> never see anywhere near as much angst and agony as Python
> 3.x has caused.

Because you *IGNORE* the fact that people *ACTIVELY* choose
to use languages like Python, however, people *MOSTLY* use
languages like PHP and Javascript because they are *FORCED*

Of course, nature always contains "abnormalities" so i'm
sure there are few instances of people "seeking out" those
languages, but they *ARE* in the minority.

So, keeping those facts in mind, you can now understand why
people are so passionate about Python code breaks, and so
un-passionate about PHP and Javascript code breaks -- they're
already loathing in agony, so why would they seek to acerbate
it?
    
    POOR PITIFUL FOOLS!

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#74653

FromChris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Date2014-07-18 03:52 +1000
Message-ID<mailman.11935.1405619557.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#74652
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:36 AM, Rick Johnson
<rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> wrote:
> they're already loathing in agony, so why would they seek to
> acerbate it?

This is a truly amazing demonstration. You have outdone Gaelmaen for
comprehensibly incorrect use of English.

ChrisA

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#74669

FromRick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com>
Date2014-07-17 11:38 -0700
Message-ID<d564416f-9ca6-44aa-a6a9-f5ce7d75f41e@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#74653
> On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:36 AM, Rick Johnson
> This is a truly amazing demonstration. You have outdone
> Gaelmaen for comprehensibly incorrect use of English.

Of all my impassioned pleas, astute logical reasoning, and
empathetic motivational speeches, of all of that "gold", all
you can muster is to harp about a few misspellings?

    ARE YOU SERIOUS?

Okay, i admit it. My spell checker is broken -- maybe it
was written in Python3 and it's fuzzy logic is a little too
fuzzy for it's own good?

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#74672

FromChris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Date2014-07-18 04:48 +1000
Message-ID<mailman.11949.1405622902.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#74669
On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 4:38 AM, Rick Johnson
<rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> wrote:
>> This is a truly amazing demonstration. You have outdone
>> Gaelmaen for comprehensibly incorrect use of English.
>
> Of all my impassioned pleas, astute logical reasoning, and
> empathetic motivational speeches, of all of that "gold", all
> you can muster is to harp about a few misspellings?
>
>     ARE YOU SERIOUS?
>
> Okay, i admit it. My spell checker is broken -- maybe it
> was written in Python3 and it's fuzzy logic is a little too
> fuzzy for it's own good?

Yeah, sure. That was absolute gold there, totally amazing stuff. I was
so absolutely astonished by the sheer ... uh, amazingness of it, that
I couldn't find anything to say.

Either that, or it was a load of drivel. Kinda hard to tell one from
the other, face like yours. But I imagine if if it were fear, your
eyes would be wider. Or something like that.

ChrisA

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#74760

FromSteven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
Date2014-07-18 18:01 +0000
Message-ID<53c960f5$0$9505$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to#74652
On Thu, 17 Jul 2014 10:36:43 -0700, Rick Johnson wrote:

> On Thursday, July 17, 2014 12:48:38 AM UTC-5, alex23 wrote:
>> PHP regularly breaks compatibility between _minor_ version releases:
>> [...] more so with major releases: [...] yet I never see anywhere near
>> as much angst and agony as Python 3.x has caused.
> 
> Because you *IGNORE* the fact that people *ACTIVELY* choose to use
> languages like Python, however, people *MOSTLY* use languages like PHP
> and Javascript because they are *FORCED*

That explains all those concentration camps in North Korea, filled with 
political prisoners sentenced to 30 years of PHP programming.



-- 
Steven

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#74483

Fromwxjmfauth@gmail.com
Date2014-07-15 06:33 -0700
Message-ID<852b2cfd-d425-460e-8d10-6256e4884433@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#74476
Le mardi 15 juillet 2014 14:17:54 UTC+2, Fabien a écrit :
> My two cents as a new pythonista and a scientist: isn't python2 killing 
> 
> python? This old stuff is everywhere in the tutorials, docs, etc. and 
> 
> this is quite annoying. When I download a python notebook, the first 
> 
> thing I have to do is to translate it to py3. Which is not an easy task, 
> 
> given the fact that I am the tutorial *user* and am supposed to learn ;)
> 
> 
> 
> Side note: Debian/Ubuntu/Mint announced the total migration to python3, 
> 
> which is good but still work in progress:
> 
> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Python/3

------

One more good reason to stay away from these
products.

jmf

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#72358

FromSteve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net>
Date2014-06-01 05:00 +0200
Message-ID<qn5lo9l5bs7iubumgu1ine3sn4fmuk039s@4ax.com>
In reply to#72336
On 31 May 2014 12:30:11 GMT, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:

>On Sat, 31 May 2014 12:07:59 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote:
>
>> I'll leave Python 3.2 on my computer, but 2.7.5 will be the one I'm
>> installing now. Even if I could *find* a book that deals with Python
>> 3.x, couldn't afford to but yet another Python book.
>
>Version 2.7 is a good choice, and it will be around for a long time: it 
>will be supported until at least 2020, so you should get many years of 
>use from it.
>
>Do not be discouraged about Python 3. There are differences, but they 
>aren't so different as to be a major barrier. By the time you have a bit 
>of experience with 2.7, you will be more than capable of dealing with the 
>differences with version 3. They are not different languages, think of 
>them as slightly different dialects of the same language, like UK and 
>South African English.

That's more or less what the book said, about why it chose to use 2 rather
than 3. 


-- 
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web:  http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk

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