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Groups > comp.lang.python > #72180 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2014-05-28 14:23 -0500 |
| Last post | 2014-05-31 09:28 -0800 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 324 — 57 participants |
Back to article view | Back to comp.lang.python
Python 3 is killing Python Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 14:23 -0500
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2014-05-28 21:39 +0200
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-28 22:41 +0300
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-28 12:49 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 14:58 -0500
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-29 03:49 +0000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-28 21:23 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2014-05-29 06:38 -0500
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-29 06:15 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-28 21:24 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-05-28 23:14 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-14 15:12 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python mm0fmf <none@mailinator.com> - 2014-07-14 23:37 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-07-14 23:47 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-14 18:00 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-15 11:18 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-15 09:28 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-14 18:54 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-15 12:11 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-14 21:18 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-15 14:40 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Martin S <shieldfire@gmail.com> - 2014-07-15 06:31 +0200
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-15 05:41 +0000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Tim Roberts <timr@probo.com> - 2014-07-16 20:18 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 22:15 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-07-17 17:36 +1200
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 15:45 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 15:45 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-15 08:05 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-07-15 12:30 +0000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-15 00:59 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-07-15 12:19 +0000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-07-15 15:50 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-07-15 17:38 +0000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-07-15 18:23 +0000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-15 16:35 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-05-29 08:38 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-05-28 16:22 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python beliavsky@aol.com - 2014-08-06 06:47 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-08-06 14:42 -0400
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-07 12:42 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-07 13:37 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-08-07 21:07 -0400
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-05-28 21:57 -0400
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2014-05-31 12:07 +0200
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2014-05-31 13:09 +0200
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2014-05-31 13:22 +0200
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2014-06-01 04:57 +0200
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 13:35 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-31 21:11 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2014-06-01 13:38 +0200
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2014-06-01 07:01 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-06-01 07:52 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2014-06-01 13:41 +0200
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-06-01 12:53 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-06-01 17:21 +0000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2014-06-02 07:14 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-31 12:30 +0000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-05-31 08:48 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-06-02 09:01 -0600
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-02 16:15 +0000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-06-02 12:21 -0400
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-03 02:30 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-02 16:52 +0000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2014-06-02 19:16 +0200
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-06-02 11:53 -0600
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-06-02 18:59 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-06-02 23:12 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-02 23:30 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-06-03 09:03 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-06-03 07:22 -0400
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2014-07-14 21:58 -0600
Re: Python 3 is killing Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-07-15 00:23 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-15 08:31 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2014-07-14 21:47 -0600
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-15 14:20 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Fabien <fabien.maussion@gmail.com> - 2014-07-15 14:17 +0200
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-15 23:00 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Kevin Walzer <kw@codebykevin.com> - 2014-07-15 09:57 -0400
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 00:31 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-07-15 20:38 +0300
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-15 19:06 +0000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-07-15 23:01 +0300
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-16 03:51 +0000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 14:20 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-16 07:33 +0000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-07-16 08:52 +0300
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 16:26 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-07-16 09:44 +0300
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 16:50 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-07-16 00:11 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-16 07:49 +0000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 18:44 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-16 11:35 +0000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 21:54 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-07-16 13:46 +0300
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-16 12:10 +0000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 22:55 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-07-16 06:10 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-07-16 16:11 +0300
Re: Python 3 is killing Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-07-16 06:22 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 00:04 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-07-16 17:39 +0300
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 01:23 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-07-16 18:48 +0300
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 02:07 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-07-16 19:20 +0300
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-17 02:51 +0000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 13:15 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-07-17 12:27 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python "Frank Millman" <frank@chagford.com> - 2014-07-17 07:18 +0200
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-17 07:49 +0000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-07-30 14:31 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-07-16 17:02 -0400
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-07-16 18:47 -0400
Re: Python 3 is killing Python "Frank Millman" <frank@chagford.com> - 2014-07-16 16:27 +0200
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 15:41 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-17 00:00 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 18:16 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-17 03:14 +0000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-17 08:17 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2014-07-18 12:49 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 20:34 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-07-18 14:17 +0000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 13:20 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-17 23:54 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-17 03:16 +0000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 21:47 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Fabien <fabien.maussion@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 12:12 +0200
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 21:12 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 11:15 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-18 04:27 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-07-17 21:44 +0300
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 19:24 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-18 12:39 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 21:40 -0600
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-07-18 08:24 +0300
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-18 08:34 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-07-18 14:19 +0000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2014-07-18 08:35 -0600
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Torsten Bronger <bronger@physik.rwth-aachen.de> - 2014-07-18 17:25 +0200
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-07-18 19:45 -0400
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-17 20:06 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Emile van Sebille <emile@fenx.com> - 2014-07-17 12:22 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-17 21:37 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-07-17 17:30 -0400
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-07-17 20:13 -0400
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-18 18:38 +0000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-18 01:26 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2014-07-18 12:54 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Andrew Berg <aberg010@my.hennepintech.edu> - 2014-07-17 19:45 -0500
Re: Python 3 is killing Python alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2014-07-18 13:01 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-18 16:45 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-18 12:15 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 20:37 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-18 15:34 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-07-18 02:21 -0600
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-18 18:27 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-07-18 16:46 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-18 16:49 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-18 16:50 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-18 17:22 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-07-18 21:27 -0400
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-07-18 21:21 -0400
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-19 09:29 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-20 02:41 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-07-19 12:00 -0600
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-19 13:39 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-20 09:13 +1000
Improving Idle (was Re: Python 3 ...) Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-07-19 16:45 -0400
Re: Improving Idle (was Re: Python 3 ...) Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-19 18:31 -0700
Re: Improving Idle (was Re: Python 3 ...) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-20 11:42 +1000
Re: Improving Idle (was Re: Python 3 ...) Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-20 12:40 +0100
Idle's Shell: prompts and indents (was ...) Idle users please read Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-07-20 17:52 -0400
Re: Idle's Shell: prompts and indents (was ...) Idle users please read Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-20 18:22 -0700
Re: Idle's Shell: prompts and indents (was ...) Idle users please read Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-21 11:32 +1000
Re: Idle's Shell: prompts and indents (was ...) Idle users please read Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-07-20 23:49 -0400
Re: Idle's Shell: prompts and indents (was ...) Idle users please read Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-21 10:55 +1000
Re: Idle's Shell: prompts and indents (was ...) Idle users please read Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-07-20 23:28 -0400
Re: Idle's Shell: prompts and indents (was ...) Idle users please read Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-21 13:34 +1000
Re: Idle's Shell: prompts and indents (was ...) Idle users please read Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-07-21 05:00 -0400
Re: Idle's Shell: prompts and indents (was ...) Idle users please read wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-07-21 13:00 -0700
Re: Idle's Shell: prompts and indents (was ...) Idle users please read Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-21 20:56 +1000
Re: Idle's Shell: prompts and indents (was ...) Idle users please read Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-07-21 14:30 -0400
Re: Idle's Shell: prompts and indents (was ...) Idle users please read Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-22 04:35 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-19 15:50 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-07-19 19:23 -0400
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-20 09:10 +1000
Re: Improving Idle (was Re: Python 3 ...) Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-21 02:54 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-18 08:24 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-18 18:20 +0000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-18 19:31 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-07-18 20:44 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-18 14:37 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-07-18 18:09 -0400
Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-19 07:28 +0000
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] "C.D. Reimer" <chris@cdreimer.com> - 2014-07-19 11:08 -0700
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-07-19 14:31 -0400
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-20 01:23 +0000
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-20 11:39 +1000
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] "C.D. Reimer" <chris@cdreimer.com> - 2014-07-19 18:53 -0700
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] CHIN Dihedral <dihedral88888@gmail.com> - 2014-07-21 08:37 -0700
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2014-07-20 14:18 +1000
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2014-07-20 07:50 +1000
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-20 09:19 +1000
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2014-07-20 10:41 +1000
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] "C.D. Reimer" <chris@cdreimer.com> - 2014-07-19 18:24 -0700
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] TP <wingusr@gmail.com> - 2014-07-19 19:03 -0700
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] "C.D. Reimer" <chris@cdreimer.com> - 2014-07-19 20:10 -0700
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2014-08-01 13:10 +0200
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-01 21:22 +1000
Re: Python and IDEs Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-08-01 15:19 +0300
Re: Python and IDEs Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-01 22:30 +1000
Re: Python and IDEs Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-01 23:10 +1000
Re: Python and IDEs Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-01 23:30 +1000
Re: Python and IDEs Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-08-01 18:13 +0300
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2014-08-06 14:38 +0200
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-06 22:51 +1000
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2014-08-11 11:08 +0200
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Nicholas Cole <nicholas.cole@gmail.com> - 2014-08-01 15:28 +0100
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2014-08-06 14:47 +0200
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-07 13:32 +1000
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2014-08-11 11:08 +0200
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-08-11 09:37 +0000
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-11 20:20 +1000
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-08-11 14:45 +0100
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-08-11 18:42 +0000
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-12 10:11 +1000
Re: Quoting and attribution (was: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python]) Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-08-11 19:27 -0500
Re: Quoting and attribution (was: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python]) Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-12 02:07 +0000
Re: Quoting and attribution (was: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python]) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-12 12:13 +1000
Re: Quoting and attribution (was: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python]) Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-08-11 21:23 -0500
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2014-08-13 12:42 +0200
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-13 23:35 +1000
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-08-13 16:51 +0100
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-02 00:39 +1000
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-08-02 11:14 +1200
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-02 09:50 +1000
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Olaf Hering <olaf@aepfle.de> - 2014-08-02 09:10 +0200
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-08-02 23:38 +1200
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Dietmar Schwertberger <maillist@schwertberger.de> - 2014-08-01 19:16 +0200
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2014-08-06 14:47 +0200
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-08-11 18:39 +0000
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2014-08-13 13:46 +0200
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2014-08-01 14:22 -0600
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-08-01 22:09 +0100
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-08-02 12:00 +1200
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-02 10:20 +1000
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-08-02 23:33 +1200
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-02 23:01 +1000
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-08-03 12:01 +1200
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-03 11:12 +1000
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-08-02 14:55 +0100
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-08-03 12:04 +1200
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Dietmar Schwertberger <maillist@schwertberger.de> - 2014-08-03 09:46 +0200
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-08-02 10:27 -0400
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-08-03 12:20 +1200
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-02 09:48 +1000
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Duncan Booth <duncan.booth@invalid.invalid> - 2014-08-05 13:29 +0000
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-06 02:50 +1000
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] Duncan Booth <duncan.booth@invalid.invalid> - 2014-08-05 19:25 +0000
Re: Python and IDEs [was Re: Python 3 is killing Python] TP <wingusr@gmail.com> - 2014-08-05 14:28 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-07-18 19:26 -0400
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Kevin Walzer <kw@codebykevin.com> - 2014-08-03 21:21 -0400
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 01:18 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Javier <nospam@nospam.com> - 2014-07-16 17:33 +0000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 11:50 -0600
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-17 03:33 +0000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-17 04:25 +0000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python "Neil D. Cerutti" <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2014-07-16 11:48 -0400
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-16 18:34 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python "Frank Millman" <frank@chagford.com> - 2014-07-17 08:31 +0200
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 16:41 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python "Frank Millman" <frank@chagford.com> - 2014-07-17 09:09 +0200
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 17:59 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Glenn Linderman <v+python@g.nevcal.com> - 2014-08-01 23:18 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-15 21:24 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2014-07-15 13:47 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Abhiram R <abhi.darkness@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 03:07 +0530
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-16 02:08 +0000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Abhiram R <abhi.darkness@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 03:05 +0530
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-15 22:49 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Abhiram R <abhi.darkness@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 03:43 +0530
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Kevin Walzer <kw@codebykevin.com> - 2014-07-15 18:30 -0400
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Abhiram R <abhi.darkness@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 04:10 +0530
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-15 16:53 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-07-16 02:57 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Tim Roberts <timr@probo.com> - 2014-07-16 20:20 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 13:38 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Abhiram R <abhi.darkness@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 09:07 +0530
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-16 09:18 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick <kwpolska@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 12:20 +0200
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-07-17 14:17 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Joshua Landau <joshua@landau.ws> - 2014-07-16 00:45 +0100
Interleaved posting style for text discussion forums (was: Python 3 is killing Python) Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-07-17 14:02 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-15 23:38 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Kevin Walzer <kw@codebykevin.com> - 2014-07-15 20:43 -0400
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-07-15 23:05 -0400
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-07-16 13:59 +0000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-15 11:01 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-07-15 21:08 +0300
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-15 18:57 +0000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-07-15 22:49 +0300
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-15 18:53 +0000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-15 13:20 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-07-15 14:46 -0600
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-07-15 12:53 -0600
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Anders Wegge Keller <wegge@wegge.dk> - 2014-07-15 17:02 +0200
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-07-15 15:43 +0000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-15 16:44 +0100
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-16 01:48 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 15:48 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-17 07:03 +0000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 10:36 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-18 03:52 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-17 11:38 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-18 04:48 +1000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-18 18:01 +0000
Re: Python 3 is killing Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-07-15 06:33 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2014-06-01 05:00 +0200
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-31 15:44 +0300
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2014-06-01 05:05 +0200
Re: Python 3 is killing Python pyotr filipivich <phamp@mindspring.com> - 2014-07-12 10:50 -0700
Re: Python 3 is killing Python Deb Wyatt <codemonkey@inbox.com> - 2014-05-31 09:28 -0800
Page 6 of 17 — ← Prev page 1 … 4 5 [6] 7 8 … 17 Next page →
| From | wxjmfauth@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-07-16 06:22 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <f0059368-53bf-472e-9cb9-f942eaa9d484@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #74552 |
Le mercredi 16 juillet 2014 15:11:26 UTC+2, Marko Rauhamaa a écrit :
> Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>:
>
>
>
> > With a few exceptions, /etc is filled with text files, not binary
>
> > files, and half the executables on the system are text (Python, Perl,
>
> > bash, sh, awk, etc.).
>
>
>
> Our debate seems to stem from a different idea of what text is. To me,
>
> text in the Python sense is a sequence of UCS-4 character code points.
>
> The opposite of text is not necessarily binary.
>
>
>
> Most of those "text" files under /etc expect ASCII. In many contexts,
>
> they tolerate UTF-8 or Latin-3 or whatever, but it's a bit iffy (how are
>
> extra-ASCII passwords encoded in the /etc/shadow?). Also, the files
>
> under /etc, /var/log etc should not depend on the locale since they are
>
> typically interpreted by daemons, which typically don't possess locales.
>
>
>
> > Relatively rare. Like, um, email, news, html, Unix config files,
>
> > Windows ini files, source code in just about every language ever,
>
> > SMSes, XML, JSON, YAML, instant messenger apps,
>
>
>
> I would be especially wary of letting Python 3 interpret those files for
>
> me. Python's [text] strings could be a wonderful tool on the inside of
>
> my program, but I definitely would like to micromanage the I/O. Do I
>
> obey the locale or not? That's too big (and painful) a question for
>
> Python to answer on its own (and pretend like everything's under
>
> control).
>
>
>
> > word processors... even *graphic* applications invariably have a text
>
> > tool.
>
>
>
> Thing is, the serious text utilities like word processors probably need
>
> lots of ancillary information so Python's [text] strings might be too
>
> naive to represent even a single character.
>
>
>
> >> More often, len(b'λ') is what I want.
>
> >
>
> > Oh really? Are you sure? What exactly is b'λ'?
>
>
>
> That's something that ought to work in the UTF-8 paradise.
>
> Unfortunately, Python only allows ASCII in bytes. ASCII only! In this
>
> day and age! Even C is not so picky:
>
>
>
> #include <stdio.h>
>
>
>
> int main()
>
> {
>
> printf("Hyvää yötä\n");
>
> return 0;
>
> }
>
>
>
>
>
> Marko
--------
And if you are visiting, spying the bugs tracker,
dev lists and ... you will happily, this perpertual
way of thinking:
if ascii:
do stuff
else:
find a work around
It's quite funny for a tool which pretends
to live in the unicode world.
jmd
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| From | Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-07-17 00:04 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.11879.1405519484.18130.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #74552 |
On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 11:11 PM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>:
>
>> With a few exceptions, /etc is filled with text files, not binary
>> files, and half the executables on the system are text (Python, Perl,
>> bash, sh, awk, etc.).
>
> Our debate seems to stem from a different idea of what text is. To me,
> text in the Python sense is a sequence of UCS-4 character code points.
> The opposite of text is not necessarily binary.
Let's shift things a moment for an analogy. What is audio? What is
sound? (Music, if you like, but I'm not going to get into the debate
of whether or not Band So-and-so's output should be called music.) I
have a variety of files that store music; some are RIFF WAVs, some are
MPEG level 3s, some are Ogg Vorbis files, and right now I have an MKV
of "Do you wanna build a snowman?" playing. (As far as I'm concerned,
it's primarily there for music, and the video image is buried behind
other windows. But I'll accept the argument that that's just a
container for some other format of audio, probably MPEG but I haven't
checked.) Sound, fundamentally, is a waveform, or a series of air
pressures.
Text, similarly, is not UCS-4, but a series of characters. We are
fortunate enough to have Unicode and can therefore define that text is
a sequence of Unicode codepoints, but the distinction isn't a feature
of Unicode; if you ask a primary school child to identify the letters
in a word, s/he should be able to do so, and that without any computer
involvement at all. Letters, digits, and other characters exist
independently of encodings or even character sets, but it's really
REALLY hard for computers to manipulate what they can't identify. So
let's define Unicode text as "a sequence of Unicode codepoints" or "a
sequence of Unicode characters", and proceed from there.
A file on a Unix or Windows file system consists of a sequence of
bytes. Ergo, a file cannot actually contain text; it must store
*encoded* text. But this is far and away the most common type of file
on any file system. Tweaking the previous script to os.walk() my home
directory, rather than scanning $PATH, the ratios are roughly 2:1 the
other way - heaps more text files than binary. And this is with my
Downloads/ directory being almost entirely binaries, and lots of them;
various zip files, deb packages, executables of various types... about
the only actual text there would be .patch files.
>> Relatively rare. Like, um, email, news, html, Unix config files,
>> Windows ini files, source code in just about every language ever,
>> SMSes, XML, JSON, YAML, instant messenger apps,
>
> I would be especially wary of letting Python 3 interpret those files for
> me. Python's [text] strings could be a wonderful tool on the inside of
> my program, but I definitely would like to micromanage the I/O. Do I
> obey the locale or not? That's too big (and painful) a question for
> Python to answer on its own (and pretend like everything's under
> control).
That's a problem that will be solved progressively, by daemons
shifting to UTF-8 for everything. But until then, you have to treat
log files as "messy" - you can't trust to a simple encoding. But
that's unusual compared to the common case. If you're reading your own
config files, you can simply stipulate that they are to be encoded
UTF-8, and if they're not, you throw an error. Simple! Works with the
easy way of opening files in Python. If you're reading someone else's
config files, you can either figure out what that program is
documented as expecting (and error out if the file's misencoded), or
treat it as messy and read it as binary.
>> word processors... even *graphic* applications invariably have a text
>> tool.
>
> Thing is, the serious text utilities like word processors probably need
> lots of ancillary information so Python's [text] strings might be too
> naive to represent even a single character.
Ancillary information? (La)TeX files are entirely text, and have all
that info in them somewhere. Open Documents are basically zip files of
XML data, where XML is ... all text. Granted, it's barely-readable
text, but it is UTF-8 encoded text. (I just checked an odt file that I
have sitting here, and it does contain a thumbnail in PNG format. But
the primary content is all XML files.)
>>> More often, len(b'λ') is what I want.
>>
>> Oh really? Are you sure? What exactly is b'λ'?
>
> That's something that ought to work in the UTF-8 paradise.
> Unfortunately, Python only allows ASCII in bytes. ASCII only! In this
> day and age! Even C is not so picky:
>
> #include <stdio.h>
>
> int main()
> {
> printf("Hyvää yötä\n");
> return 0;
> }
And I have a program that lets me store 1.75 in an integer variable!
That's ever so much better than most programs. It's so much less
picky!
Actually, Python allows all bytes in a bytestring, not just ASCII.
However, b'λ' has no meaning; in fact, even b'asdf' is dubious, and
this kind of notation exists only because there are many file formats
that mix ASCII text and binary data. To be truly accurate, b'asdf'
ought to be written as x'61736466' or something, because it's as
likely to mean 1634952294 or 1717859169 as it is to mean "asdf".
What is C actually storing in that string? Do you know? Can you be
truly sure that it's UTF-8? No, you cannot. Anyone might transcode
your source file, and I don't think C compilers are aware of character
literals and their associated encodings. More importantly, you cannot
be sure that that will print "Hyvää yötä" to the console; if the
console is set to an encoding other than the one your source file was
using, you'll get mojibake. With Python, at least the interpreter gets
some idea of what's going on.
ChrisA
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| From | Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-07-16 17:39 +0300 |
| Message-ID | <87oawpe5be.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> |
| In reply to | #74557 |
Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>:
> On Wed, Jul 16, 2014 at 11:11 PM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
>> I would be especially wary of letting Python 3 interpret those files for
>> me. [...]
>
> If you're reading your own config files, you can simply stipulate that
> they are to be encoded UTF-8, and if they're not, you throw an error.
> Simple! Works with the easy way of opening files in Python.
That's my point! It does not work.
$ python3 -c "
> import sys
> sys.stdout.write(sys.stdin.read())" <<<"Hyvää yötä"
Hyvää yötä
$ LANG=en_US.ASCII python3 -c "
> import sys
> sys.stdout.write(sys.stdin.read())" <<<"Hyvää yötä"
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "<string>", line 3, in <module>
File "/usr/lib/python3.2/encodings/ascii.py", line 26, in decode
return codecs.ascii_decode(input, self.errors)[0]
UnicodeDecodeError: 'ascii' codec can't decode byte 0xc3 in position 3\
: ordinal not in range(128)
In other words, the well-meaning Python3 blindly obeys the locale even
though I "simply stipulated" that my input is UTF-8.
>> Thing is, the serious text utilities like word processors probably
>> need lots of ancillary information so Python's [text] strings might
>> be too naive to represent even a single character.
>
> Ancillary information? (La)TeX files are entirely text,
I mean on the inside. For example, if emacs were to be written in
Python3, I don't know if it could use Python3's strings.
Each character position in a buffer or a string can have a text property
list, much like the property list of a symbol (see Property Lists). The
properties belong to a particular character at a particular place, such
as, the letter ‘T’ at the beginning of this sentence or the first ‘o’ in
‘foo’—if the same character occurs in two different places, the two
occurrences in general have different properties. <URL:
http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/elisp/Text-Prope
rties.html>.
> What is C actually storing in that string? Do you know? Can you be
> truly sure that it's UTF-8? No, you cannot.
I happen to know it does. And again, I may "stipulate" it to use your
word.
Python, happily, is even more explicit about it:
#!/usr/bin/env python3
# -*- coding: utf-8 -*-
Marko
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-07-17 01:23 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.11883.1405524209.18130.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #74560 |
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 12:39 AM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote: > In other words, the well-meaning Python3 blindly obeys the locale even > though I "simply stipulated" that my input is UTF-8. Except that you didn't - that input was not UTF-8. When you put a text string as redirected input and then change LANG, you're lying to the system, and you deserve all you get. Why are you even doing this, other than to be able to point and laugh at programs that do the wrong thing - when you've instructed them wrongly? ChrisA
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-07-16 18:48 +0300 |
| Message-ID | <8761ix4859.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> |
| In reply to | #74562 |
Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>: > On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 12:39 AM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote: >> In other words, the well-meaning Python3 blindly obeys the locale even >> though I "simply stipulated" that my input is UTF-8. > > Except that you didn't - that input was not UTF-8. When you put a text > string as redirected input and then change LANG, you're lying to the > system, and you deserve all you get. Why are you even doing this, > other than to be able to point and laugh at programs that do the wrong > thing - when you've instructed them wrongly? The example was artificial to make it small enough. The point is, though, that it is dangerous to assume that the file formats agree with the locale. Marko
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-07-17 02:07 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.11885.1405526851.18130.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #74563 |
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 1:48 AM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote: > it is dangerous to assume that the file formats agree with > the locale. Of course. You never assume anything about encodings. What you do is expect something about the encoding, and either throw an error if it's wrong, or figure out some other encoding to use. With anything that you broadly control (eg if your program is configured by a file in /etc that nothing else uses), you just decode with whatever you document your program as using, and any failure is *not your problem*. It's that simple. You don't replace /etc/passwd with a JPEG encoded photograph of your family tree and expect all your family to be able to log in; no more should you expect a file to be parsed correctly if it's meant to be UTF-8 and you save it in ISO-8859-4. The two cases are equally ridiculous. The only thing that might be an issue is that you can't use open(fn) to read your files, but you have to explicitly state the encoding. That would be an understandable problem, especially for someone who develops on a single platform and forgets that the default differs. As long as you always explicitly say encoding="utf-8", and document that you do so, any problems are someone else's. ChrisA
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| From | Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-07-16 19:20 +0300 |
| Message-ID | <871ttl46o1.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> |
| In reply to | #74565 |
Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>: > The only thing that might be an issue is that you can't use open(fn) > to read your files, but you have to explicitly state the encoding. > That would be an understandable problem, especially for someone who > develops on a single platform and forgets that the default differs. As > long as you always explicitly say encoding="utf-8", and document that > you do so, any problems are someone else's. Yes. I don't like open() guessing the enconding: The default encoding is platform dependent (whatever locale.getpreferredencoding() returns) Also, I don't like sys.std* guessing the encoding: Under other platforms, the locale encoding is used (see locale.getpreferredencoding()). In each case, it would have been better to default to bytes just like subprocess does. Marko
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| From | Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-07-17 02:51 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <53c73a4c$0$29897$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> |
| In reply to | #74567 |
On Wed, 16 Jul 2014 19:20:14 +0300, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>:
>
>> The only thing that might be an issue is that you can't use open(fn) to
>> read your files, but you have to explicitly state the encoding. That
>> would be an understandable problem, especially for someone who develops
>> on a single platform and forgets that the default differs. As long as
>> you always explicitly say encoding="utf-8", and document that you do
>> so, any problems are someone else's.
>
> Yes. I don't like open() guessing the enconding:
It doesn't *guess*. It has a sensible default encoding which, for most
users most of the time, does the right thing. Ultimately though, the
encoding is under your control: you can specify it if you think you know
better.
> The default encoding is platform dependent (whatever
> locale.getpreferredencoding() returns)
Right. Most text files will be written using the preferred encoding,
unless the user explicitly uses something else when writing the file. In
that case it's the user's responsibility. Or if they've got the file from
another system with a different encoding. But even then, the most common
encodings are ASCII-compatible, which means that the lowest common
denominator case (reading and writing ASCII files) will Just Work.
From a purity stand-point, no, open() shouldn't have a default encoding,
and the user should have to specify it. But what makes you imagine that
the user will know the correct encoding better than Python does? The
average coder[1] shouldn't have to care about encodings just to do
file.write("Hello World"), and on the average computer they don't have to
because Python sets a sensible default.
But you know what? From a purity stand-point, *even binary mode* assumes
an encoding of sorts. How do you know that binary files on your platform
use eight-bit bytes? Some DSPs use 9-bit bytes, and historically
computers had as few as 6 or as many as 60 bits per byte. This is why the
C standard requires that a byte is *at least* 8 bits.
But, having said that, the assumption that binary files are based on 8-
bit bytes is pretty safe. It would be foolish to force the majority of
people, who don't need to care about these sorts of details, to care
about them just to suit the one in ten-thousand who do.
Likewise with text files. Python makes sensible defaults which will suit
most people, rather than force people to guess the wrong encoding. But
it's only a default, you can explicitly set it if you believe the file in
question uses a different encoding.
[...]
> In each case, it would have been better to default to bytes just like
> subprocess does.
Better for whom? You? Maybe. For the typical programmer that Python is
designed for? Hell no.
[1] Lets be honest, there still is a bias towards English and ASCII in
computing, and probably this will remain the case until English ceases to
be a de facto lingua franca. Most programming languages are written for
J. Random Hacker, not Jランダムハッカー.
--
Steven
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| From | Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-07-17 13:15 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.11906.1405566939.18130.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #74598 |
On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 12:51 PM, Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> wrote: > Most programming languages are written for > J. Random Hacker, not Jランダムハッカー. I had to paste that into Google Translate to be able to understand what you meant (although I could guess just fine)... but to actually see the characters, I had to paste it into my MUD client. Yeah. Figure that out. A MUD client had better font support for other languages than a web browser with a dedicated translation tool. ChrisA
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| From | MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-07-17 12:27 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.11924.1405596436.18130.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #74598 |
On 2014-07-17 04:15, Chris Angelico wrote: > On Thu, Jul 17, 2014 at 12:51 PM, Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> wrote: >> Most programming languages are written for >> J. Random Hacker, not Jランダムハッカー. > > I had to paste that into Google Translate to be able to understand > what you meant (although I could guess just fine)... but to actually > see the characters, I had to paste it into my MUD client. Yeah. Figure > that out. A MUD client had better font support for other languages > than a web browser with a dedicated translation tool. > I can see the characters in both Thunderbird and Firefox.
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| From | "Frank Millman" <frank@chagford.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-07-17 07:18 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.11913.1405574348.18130.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #74549 |
"Steven D'Aprano" <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote in message news:53c66ba8$0$9505$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com... > > E.g. having b"abc"[0] return 97 instead of b"a" was probably a mistake, > but there are four versions of Python 3.x that do it that way and it's > too late to change until Python 5000. (Python 4 is unlikely to break > backwards compatibility in a big way.) > If it was considered important enough, couldn't they just introduce a new datatype, say B'...', with the desired behaviour. B'' would be backported to Python 2.7 as an alternative to b'', to faciliate writing code that works on both versions. There would be a lot of overlap with b'...', but the differences could be documented. Methods could be added to B'' to replicate any behaviour of b'' which has been changed. Then over time b'' could be deprecated, and in Python 4 b'' could replace B''. Frank Millman
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| From | Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-07-17 07:49 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <53c77ff8$0$29897$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> |
| In reply to | #74616 |
On Thu, 17 Jul 2014 07:18:54 +0200, Frank Millman wrote: > "Steven D'Aprano" <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote in > message news:53c66ba8$0$9505$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com... >> >> E.g. having b"abc"[0] return 97 instead of b"a" was probably a mistake, >> but there are four versions of Python 3.x that do it that way and it's >> too late to change until Python 5000. (Python 4 is unlikely to break >> backwards compatibility in a big way.) >> >> > If it was considered important enough, couldn't they just introduce a > new datatype, say B'...', with the desired behaviour. B'' would be > backported to Python 2.7 as an alternative to b'', to faciliate writing > code that works on both versions. Sure, if it were considered important enough. But such an addition would add complexity and redundancy to the language, and would add one more thing that people have to learn and decide about. People would confuse which one was which, which would lead to bugs. Since b'abcd'[0:1] takes only a tiny bit more effort than b'abcd'[0], fixing this is not considered worth the cost. -- Steven
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| From | Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-07-30 14:31 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <bbaf0383-de3c-4537-b12e-b21c20301ad9@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #74546 |
On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 4:16:45 PM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: > In unix and linux, there never was a separate text mode for files. When > you open a file, you open a file -- and stuff bytes in it. There is no > commonly accepted text file encoding. UTF-8 comes close to being a > standard, but I know somebody who sticks to an ISO-8859-1 locale. Here's the Solaris docs: | The C locale, also known as the POSIX locale, is the POSIX system | default locale for all POSIX-compliant systems. The Oracle Solaris | operating system is a POSIX system. The Single UNIX Specification, | Version 3, defines the C locale. You can register at | http://www.unix.org/version3/online.html to read and download the | specification. | | http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E23824_01/html/E26033/glmbx.html#glmar Layman version: ASCII - also known as the Unix locale - is the default for all *nix compliant systems. expanded further at http://blog.languager.org/2014/04/unicode-and-unix-assumption.html
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| From | Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-07-16 17:02 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.11899.1405544605.18130.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #74542 |
On 7/16/2014 3:49 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > There are certainly use-cases for stdin and stdout to use bytes, but > there are also use-cases for them to deal with strings. I'll certainly > grant you that there ought to be an easy way to get access to the binary > streams, As has been discussed before on this list, there is in 3.x. https://docs.python.org/3/library/sys.html#sys.stdin >>> b=sys.stdin.buffer.readline() a line >>> b b'a line\r\n' In other words, 3.x text mode (which essentially nothing to do with 2.x 'text' mode), is a wrapped binary mode that gives users the *choice* to read bytes or text. -- Terry Jan Reedy
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| From | Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-07-16 18:47 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.11902.1405550898.18130.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #74542 |
On 7/16/2014 5:02 PM, Terry Reedy wrote: > On 7/16/2014 3:49 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > >> There are certainly use-cases for stdin and stdout to use bytes, but >> there are also use-cases for them to deal with strings. I'll certainly >> grant you that there ought to be an easy way to get access to the binary >> streams, > > As has been discussed before on this list, there is in 3.x. > https://docs.python.org/3/library/sys.html#sys.stdin > > >>> b=sys.stdin.buffer.readline() > a line > >>> b > b'a line\r\n' > > In other words, 3.x text mode (which essentially nothing to do with 2.x > 'text' mode), is a wrapped binary mode that gives users the *choice* to > read bytes or text. One can also convert a stream permanently with .detach() >>> import sys >>> sys.stdin = sys.stdin.detach() >>> b = sys.stdin.readline() a line >>> b b'a line\r\n' This does diable the input() function ;-). >>> b = input() Traceback (most recent call last): File "<stdin>", line 1, in <module> AttributeError: '_io.BufferedReader' object has no attribute 'errors' -- Terry Jan Reedy
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| From | "Frank Millman" <frank@chagford.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-07-16 16:27 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.11880.1405520883.18130.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #74533 |
"Marko Rauhamaa" <marko@pacujo.net> wrote in message
news:87egxl4zq8.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net...
> Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>:
>
>> On Tue, 15 Jul 2014 23:01:25 +0300, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>>> In fact, I find the lazy use of Unicode strings at least as scary as
>>> the lazy use of byte strings, especially since Python 3 sneaks
>>> Unicode to the outer interfaces of the program (files, IPC).
>>
>> I'm not entirely sure I understand what you mean by "lazy use of
>> Unicode strings". And I especially don't understand what you mean by
>> "sneak". The fact that strings are Unicode is *the* biggest and most
>> obvious new feature of Python 3.
>
> I mean that sys.stdin and sys.stdout should deal with byte strings. I
> mean that open(path) should open a file in binary mode. Thankfully, the
> subprocess methods exchange bytes by default.
>
> To me, the main difference between Python 2 and Python 3 is that in the
> former, I use "..." everywhere, and in the latter, I use b"..."
> everywhere. If I should need advanced text processing features, I'll go
> through a decode() and encode().
>
>> The Python devs aren't slaves, they get to choose what features they
>> work on and which they don't. They don't owe *anybody* any feature
>> they don't want to build, or care to support, and that includes
>> continuing the 2.x series.
>
> No need to erect straw men. Of course, the Python gods do whatever they
> want. And you asked me to clarify my opinion, which I did. The breakage
> of backward compatibility wasn't worth the new features.
>
> But as I said, what is done is done. We'll live with the reality.
>
This sub-thread is the most constructive one I have seen yet that deals with
the 'problems' that Python3 has created, and how to deal with them.
I take my hat off to Marko for his approach - it has affected him adversely,
but it has not prevented him from continuing to develop using Python3.
FWIW, here are my thoughts -
1. There were many backward-incompatible changes made in Python3, but the
only one that seems to cause problems is the change to the bytes/str types.
I agree that it is a big change, but the others seem to have been accepted
without argument, so it seems to me that the python devs got an awful lot
right.
2. Those adversely affected by the change are very vocal, but we hear very
little from those who have benefited from it. This is to be expected - they
are just getting on with developing in Python3 and have no need to get
involved in controversies.
I just tried an experiment in my own project. Ned Batchelder, in his
Pragmatic Unicode presentation, http://nedbatchelder.com/text/unipain.html,
suggests that you always have some unicode characters in your data, just to
ensure that they are handled correctly. He has a tongue-in-cheek example
which spells the word PYTHON using various exotic unicode characters. I used
this to populate a field in my database, to see if it would display in my
browser-based client.
The hardest part was getting it in. There are 6 characters, but utf-8
requires 16 bytes to store it -
b'\xe2\x84\x99\xc6\xb4\xe2\x98\x82\xe2\x84\x8c\xc3\xb8\xe1\xbc\xa4'.decode('utf-8')
However, that was it. Without any changes to my program, it read it from the
database and displayed it on the screen. IE8 could only display 2 out of the
6 characters correctly, and Chrome could display 5 out of 6, but that is a
separate issue. Python3 handled it perfectly.
Would this have been so easy using Python2 - I don't think so. What follows
is blatant speculation, but it is quite possible that there are many
non-English speakers out there that have had their lives made much easier by
the changes to Python3 - a 'silent majority'? I don't mean an absolute
majority, as I believe there are still more Python2 users than Python3. But
of those who have made the switch from 2 to 3, maybe most of them are quite
happy. If so, then the python devs got that right as well.
Unfortunately, human nature being what it is, the possibility of this split
in the community continuing, to the detriment of Python itself, is all too
real. I don't know what more the python devs can do, but there are no
guarantees of success :-(
Frank Millman
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| From | Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-07-16 15:41 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <c3cd4600-9c22-4261-b7bf-ac325dbf4e6c@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #74558 |
On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 9:27:56 AM UTC-5, Frank Millman wrote:
> 2. Those adversely affected by the change are very vocal,
> but we hear very little from those who have benefited from
> it. This is to be expected - they are just getting on with
> developing in Python3 and have no need to get involved in
> controversies.
And those that "vote with their feet" are not vocal either.
Now, you might think:
"Why do i *I* care if people start using other languages?",
Well, if you enjoy writing Python code, and understand (like
i do) that Python is truly valuable to the programming
community, then you should also understand that as the number
of members drop, so too does the "collective intelligence"
of the community.
Not to mention that at some point, when the numbers get low
*enough*, maintaining a project as big as Python becomes
untenable.
Of course, no community or project can expect expansion of
members "forever", but the last thing you want is people
running away from your project. At a minimum, you want to
maintain a reasonable "average" of community members.
I personally know of few major software developers, who
whilst "shopping" for a scripting language for their API,
wanted to integrate Python because of it's clean syntax and
auto-encapsulation, but they where forced to choose *another*
language because of all the headaches that backwards
incompatibility of Python 3000 would induce in the users of
the API.
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| From | Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-07-17 00:00 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.11903.1405551587.18130.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #74592 |
On 16/07/2014 23:41, Rick Johnson wrote: > > Not to mention that at some point, when the numbers get low > *enough*, maintaining a project as big as Python becomes > untenable. > I'm not aware of any mass exodus from core Python 3 to the fork that has consistently proposed to give the world Python 2.8. Do you know something that I don't? Further the number of people assisting on the bug tracker at the moment appears to me to be going up, not down. It therefore strikes me that Python is extremely tenable, thus indicating that people are not falling for the FUD about Python 2 versus Python 3. -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
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| From | Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-07-16 18:16 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <35c7f9e5-e4ab-4673-88f7-d41e5a4be26b@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #74594 |
On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 6:00:16 PM UTC-5, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> I'm not aware of any mass exodus from core Python 3 to the
> fork that has consistently proposed to give the world
> Python 2.8. Do you know something that I don't?
Well, currently at least, we don't even *need* a Python 2.8,
not for the next couple of years anyway.
But i think that when the time arrives, the "someone", or
"some entity" will inevitably decide that, whilst Python2.x
was the best high level language available to date, it has
many flaws that cannot be worked around "cleanly", so
instead of continuing on with Python "as-is", we should take
all the good ideas of Python, plus all the good ideas of
Ruby, plus few good ideas in Perl, Javascript, etc... and
create a *whole* new language that will supersede them all.
BECAUSE REMEMBER, EVOLUTION IS A GOOD THING!
This is what i wished the Python dev *would* have devoted
their energies to, not the abortion of "Python3" we have
today. Look, i don't mean to dismiss all the difficult work
invoked in creating Python3, but i just cannot support
something that is a lackluster improvement at best. If we're
going to break Python, let's do it "correctly".
You see, people just hate updating code for what is
basically the same language. HOWEVER, if you give them a
*new* language, that is an "intelligent evolution" of the
old language, then they will be *EXCITED* to write code
again.
> Further the number of people assisting on the bug tracker
> at the moment appears to me to be going up, not down. It
> therefore strikes me that Python is extremely tenable,
> thus indicating that people are not falling for the FUD
> about Python 2 versus Python 3.
Again, your "metrics", are tainted. I believe the spike in
bug reports has less to do with:
"New community members jumping in to help"
And more to do with:
"Damn, this Python3 is buggy and i need to tell someone
so i can get my customers off my back and this egg off
my face, lest my feet move faster than Fred Flintstone!"
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| From | Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-07-17 03:14 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <53c73f90$0$29897$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> |
| In reply to | #74596 |
On Wed, 16 Jul 2014 18:16:16 -0700, Rick Johnson wrote: > On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 6:00:16 PM UTC-5, Mark Lawrence wrote: >> I'm not aware of any mass exodus from core Python 3 to the fork that >> has consistently proposed to give the world Python 2.8. Do you know >> something that I don't? > > Well, currently at least, we don't even *need* a Python 2.8, not for the > next couple of years anyway. There will never be a Python 2.8. When push comes to shove, the people bitching about Python 3 will not do the work necessary to fork Python 2.7 and make a version 2.8. -- Steven
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