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IDE for python

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  IDE for python Sameer Rathoud <sameer.rathoud@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 03:43 -0700
    Re: IDE for python Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-28 13:50 +0300
      Re: IDE for python Greg Schroeder <gmschroeder@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 18:46 +0700
        Re: IDE for python Sameer Rathoud <sameer.rathoud@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 05:56 -0700
          Re: IDE for python Sameer Rathoud <sameer.rathoud@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 06:01 -0700
            Re: IDE for python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-28 15:36 +0100
          Re: IDE for python Duncan Booth <duncan.booth@invalid.invalid> - 2014-05-29 08:09 +0000
            Re: IDE for python Duncan Booth <duncan.booth@invalid.invalid> - 2014-05-29 08:32 +0000
      Re: IDE for python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 22:55 +1000
        Re: IDE for python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-05-28 08:38 -0700
          Re: IDE for python Wolfgang Maier <wolfgang.maier@biologie.uni-freiburg.de> - 2014-06-02 07:28 +0000
          Re: IDE for python Tim Golden <mail@timgolden.me.uk> - 2014-06-02 09:15 +0100
          Re: IDE for python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-06-02 10:02 +0100
          Re: IDE for python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-02 19:15 +1000
          Re: IDE for python Wolfgang Maier <wolfgang.maier@biologie.uni-freiburg.de> - 2014-06-02 10:10 +0000
          Re: IDE for python Tim Golden <mail@timgolden.me.uk> - 2014-06-02 11:43 +0100
          Re: IDE for python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-06-02 13:11 +0100
      Re: IDE for python Greg Schroeder <gmschroeder@gmail.com> - 2014-05-29 08:13 +0700
      Programmer's text editor, for Python and everything else (was: IDE for python) Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-05-29 12:51 +1000
    答复: IDE for python "cheng.li" <scrappedprince.li@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 18:51 +0800
    Re: IDE for python alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-05-28 11:03 +0000
    Re: IDE for python Mihamina Rakotomandimby <mihamina.rakotomandimby@rktmb.org> - 2014-05-28 13:51 +0300
      Re: IDE for python Sameer Rathoud <sameer.rathoud@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 04:31 -0700
        Re: IDE for python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 22:00 +1000
        Re: IDE for python "prashanth B.G" <prash.bg@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 17:41 +0530
        Re: IDE for python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-28 13:35 +0100
          Re: IDE for python Sameer Rathoud <sameer.rathoud@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 06:27 -0700
        Re: IDE for python Joseph Martinot-Lagarde <joseph.martinot-lagarde@m4x.org> - 2014-06-04 02:12 +0200
    Re: IDE for python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 21:33 +1000
    Re: IDE for python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-28 13:04 +0000
      Re: IDE for python "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.org.uk> - 2014-05-29 00:12 +0100
        Re: IDE for python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-29 18:02 +1000
    Re: IDE for python William Ray Wing <wrw@mac.com> - 2014-05-28 08:47 -0400
    Re: IDE for python Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 09:25 -0500
    Re: IDE for python Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2014-05-28 18:24 +0200
      Re: IDE for python "Ernest Bonat, Ph.D." <ernest.bonat@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 10:24 -0700
    Re: IDE for python Deb Wyatt <codemonkey@inbox.com> - 2014-05-28 09:39 -0800
    Re: IDE for python Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-28 12:10 -0700
    Re: IDE for python Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-05-29 08:13 +1000
    Re: IDE for python Wolfgang Maier <wolfgang.maier@biologie.uni-freiburg.de> - 2014-05-29 11:41 +0200
    Re: IDE for python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-05-29 12:39 -0400
      Re: IDE for python Paul Rudin <paul.nospam@rudin.co.uk> - 2014-05-29 17:44 +0100
        Re: IDE for python Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-29 15:11 -0500
          Re: IDE for python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-29 21:41 +0100
          Re: IDE for python alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-05-30 12:23 +0000
        Re: IDE for python Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 05:53 -0700
          Re: IDE for python Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-30 16:54 +0300
            Re: IDE for python Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 07:04 -0700
              Re: IDE for python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-05-30 08:06 -0700
                Re: IDE for python Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 09:15 -0700
                  Re: IDE for python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-05-30 12:37 -0400
                    Re: IDE for python Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 09:40 -0700
                  Re: IDE for python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-30 17:38 +0100
                    Re: IDE for python Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 10:07 -0700
                      Re: IDE for python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-30 18:27 +0100
                      Re: IDE for python Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-31 18:48 -0700
                        Re: IDE for python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-06-01 00:38 -0700
                        Re: IDE for python Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-01 10:58 +0300
                          Re: IDE for python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 18:31 +1000
                            Re: IDE for python Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 01:52 -0700
                            Re: IDE for python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-01 09:06 +0000
                              Re: IDE for python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 19:59 +1000
                    Re: IDE for python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-05-31 01:46 -0700
                  Re: IDE for python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-05-30 10:17 -0700
                    Re: IDE for python Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 10:30 -0700
                      Re: IDE for python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-05-30 11:43 -0700
            Re: IDE for python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-05-30 11:46 -0400
          Re: IDE for python "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.org.uk> - 2014-06-01 00:17 +0100
    Re: IDE for python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 02:51 +1000
    Re: IDE for python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-05-29 16:45 -0400
    Re: IDE for python Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-05-30 07:05 +1000
    Re: IDE for python Travis Griggs <travisgriggs@gmail.com> - 2014-05-29 15:40 -0700
      Re: IDE for python Andrea D'Amore <anddamNOALPASTICCIODICARNE+gruppi@brapi.net> - 2014-05-30 09:21 +0200
        Re: IDE for python Andrea D'Amore <anddamNOALPASTICCIODICARNE+gruppi@brapi.net> - 2014-05-30 11:04 +0200

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#72242

On 5/29/2014 5:41 AM, Wolfgang Maier wrote:
> On 28.05.2014 12:43, Sameer Rathoud wrote:
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> I am new to python.
>>
>> I am currently using python 3.3
>>
>> With python I got IDLE, but I am not very comfortable with this.

What bothers you the most.

> Seems like not too many other people on this list share my opinion, but
> let me just say that IDLE is a nice and sufficient (for my purposes) IDE.
> If you're used to eclipse, then stick with it, but I prefer IDLE over
> any text editor although admittedly some of its keyboard shortcuts are
> unusual choices.

I am curious how many of the editors people have been recommending have 
all of the following Idle features, that I use constantly.

1. Run code in the editor with a single keypress.

2. Display output and traceback in a window that lets you jump from the 
any line in the traceback to the corresponding file and line, opening 
the file if necessary.

3. Search unopened files (grep) for a string or re.

4. Display grep output in a window that lets you jump from any 'hit' to
the corresponding file and line, opening the file if necessary.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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#72243

Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> writes:

> On 5/29/2014 5:41 AM, Wolfgang Maier wrote:
>> On 28.05.2014 12:43, Sameer Rathoud wrote:
>>> Hello everyone,
>>>
>>> I am new to python.
>>>
>>> I am currently using python 3.3
>>>
>>> With python I got IDLE, but I am not very comfortable with this.
>
> What bothers you the most.
>
>> Seems like not too many other people on this list share my opinion, but
>> let me just say that IDLE is a nice and sufficient (for my purposes) IDE.
>> If you're used to eclipse, then stick with it, but I prefer IDLE over
>> any text editor although admittedly some of its keyboard shortcuts are
>> unusual choices.
>
> I am curious how many of the editors people have been recommending have all of
> the following Idle features, that I use constantly.
>
> 1. Run code in the editor with a single keypress.
>
> 2. Display output and traceback in a window that lets you jump from the any
> line in the traceback to the corresponding file and line, opening the file if
> necessary.
>
> 3. Search unopened files (grep) for a string or re.
>
> 4. Display grep output in a window that lets you jump from any 'hit' to
> the corresponding file and line, opening the file if necessary.

Emacs.

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#72250

On 5/29/14 11:44 AM, Paul Rudin wrote:
> Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> writes:
>> I am curious how many of the editors people have been recommending have all of
>> the following Idle features, that I use constantly.
>>
>> 1. Run code in the editor with a single keypress.
>>
>> 2. Display output and traceback in a window that lets you jump from the any
>> line in the traceback to the corresponding file and line, opening the file if
>> necessary.
>>
>> 3. Search unopened files (grep) for a string or re.
>>
>> 4. Display grep output in a window that lets you jump from any 'hit' to
>> the corresponding file and line, opening the file if necessary.
>
> Emacs.
>

Emacs is the coolest tech editor out there, by far; however, the very 
nature of Emacs (which makes it the coolest) is also unfortunately the 
very thing that sucks about it... highly configurable (&extensible), 
highly complex, intricately complicated; especially for novices.

The OP is looking for an "IDE-like" interactive environment, because he 
is "uncomfortable" with IDLE.  IDLE is THE choice, however ---precisely 
because IDLE is clean, elegant, and most importantly "simple". It is 
simple to understand, and it is even simpler to use effectively... even 
for novice pythonics. IDLE is straight-forward.

As Terry pointed out, IDLE is very useful and functional. And in the 
modern python world is also very stable (IDLE used to get a black eye 
because it had snags early-on).  Today IDLE works, has great features, 
and actually helps new users get on-board with Python.

marcus

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#72252

On 29/05/2014 21:11, Mark H Harris wrote:
> The OP is looking for an "IDE-like" interactive environment, because he
> is "uncomfortable" with IDLE.  IDLE is THE choice, however ---precisely
> because IDLE is clean, elegant, and most importantly "simple". It is
> simple to understand, and it is even simpler to use effectively... even
> for novice pythonics. IDLE is straight-forward.
>
> As Terry pointed out, IDLE is very useful and functional. And in the
> modern python world is also very stable (IDLE used to get a black eye
> because it had snags early-on).  Today IDLE works, has great features,
> and actually helps new users get on-board with Python.
>
> marcus
>

I'll point out (again?) that IDLE is improving all the time thanks to 
Terry & Co.  This explains why http://legacy.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0434/

Strangely I've been using Eclipse and Pydev since porting Java to Python 
some time ago, it really simplified the process.  However I'd been 
thinking of changing and picked IDLE because it's there.  Perfectly 
adequate for my current needs.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

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#72294

On Thu, 29 May 2014 15:11:31 -0500, Mark H Harris wrote:

> On 5/29/14 11:44 AM, Paul Rudin wrote:
>> Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> writes:
>>> I am curious how many of the editors people have been recommending
>>> have all of the following Idle features, that I use constantly.
>>>
>>> 1. Run code in the editor with a single keypress.
>>>
>>> 2. Display output and traceback in a window that lets you jump from
>>> the any line in the traceback to the corresponding file and line,
>>> opening the file if necessary.
>>>
>>> 3. Search unopened files (grep) for a string or re.
>>>
>>> 4. Display grep output in a window that lets you jump from any 'hit'
>>> to the corresponding file and line, opening the file if necessary.
>>
>> Emacs.
>>
>>
> Emacs is the coolest tech editor out there, by far; however, the very
> nature of Emacs (which makes it the coolest) is also unfortunately the
> very thing that sucks about it... highly configurable (&extensible),
> highly complex, intricately complicated; especially for novices.
> 
> The OP is looking for an "IDE-like" interactive environment, because he
> is "uncomfortable" with IDLE.  IDLE is THE choice, however ---precisely
> because IDLE is clean, elegant, and most importantly "simple". It is
> simple to understand, and it is even simpler to use effectively... even
> for novice pythonics. IDLE is straight-forward.
> 
> As Terry pointed out, IDLE is very useful and functional. And in the
> modern python world is also very stable (IDLE used to get a black eye
> because it had snags early-on).  Today IDLE works, has great features,
> and actually helps new users get on-board with Python.
> 
> marcus

The only thing missing form emacs is a good text editor ;-)



-- 
Chemist who falls in acid will be tripping for weeks.

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#72296

On Thursday, May 29, 2014 10:14:35 PM UTC+5:30, Paul Rudin wrote:
> Terry Reedy writes:
> > 3. Search unopened files (grep) for a string or re.

> Emacs.

How do you do this with emacs?
I find a menagerie of greppish commands -- rgrep, lgrep, grep-find etc

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#72298

Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com>:

>> > 3. Search unopened files (grep) for a string or re.
>
> How do you do this with emacs?
> I find a menagerie of greppish commands -- rgrep, lgrep, grep-find etc

To grep for a pattern in the directory of the active buffer:

   M-x grep
   Run grep (like this): grep -nH -e 

Complete the grep command:

   Run grep (like this): grep -nH -e class *.py

and hit ENTER. Feel free to modify the command from grep to egrep, for
example. I often replace -e with -i.

To grep for a pattern in any subdirectory:

   M-x grep
   Run grep (like this): grep -nH -r assert .

or:

   M-x grep-find
   Run find (like this): find . -type f -exec grep -nH -e assert {} +

Again, you can modify the command freely:

   M-x grep-find
   Run find (like this): find . -name '*.py' -exec grep -nH -e assert {} +

You will get a list of hits in a new buffer. You can use the C-x `
command to traverse them in order, but there are many other ways.


Marko

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#72299

On Friday, May 30, 2014 7:24:10 PM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Rustom Mody wrote:
> 
> 
> >> > 3. Search unopened files (grep) for a string or re.
> >
> > How do you do this with emacs?
> > I find a menagerie of greppish commands -- rgrep, lgrep, grep-find etc
> 
> 
> 
> To grep for a pattern in the directory of the active buffer:
> 
> 
>    M-x grep
>    Run grep (like this): grep -nH -e 

Well...
lgrep is cleverer than grep (in a stupid sort of way :D )
Was just wondering if there were some other tricks

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#72301

Le vendredi 30 mai 2014 16:04:18 UTC+2, Rustom Mody a écrit :
> On Friday, May 30, 2014 7:24:10 PM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> 
> > Rustom Mody wrote:
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > >> > 3. Search unopened files (grep) for a string or re.
> 
> > >
> 
> > > How do you do this with emacs?
> 
> > > I find a menagerie of greppish commands -- rgrep, lgrep, grep-find etc
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> > To grep for a pattern in the directory of the active buffer:
> 
> > 
> 
> > 
> 
> >    M-x grep
> 
> >    Run grep (like this): grep -nH -e 
> 
> 
> 
> Well...
> 
> lgrep is cleverer than grep (in a stupid sort of way :D )
> 
> Was just wondering if there were some other tricks

========

Out of curiosity.
Are you the Rusi Mody attempting to dive in Xe(La)TeX?

jmf

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#72307

On Friday, May 30, 2014 8:36:54 PM UTC+5:30, wxjm...@gmail.com wrote:

> Out of curiosity.
> Are you the Rusi Mody attempting to dive in Xe(La)TeX?

Yeah :-)

As my blog posts labelled unicode will indicate I am a fan of using
unicode in program source:
http://blog.languager.org/search/label/Unicode

Of course it is not exactly a coincidence that I used APL a bit in my
early days.  At that time it was great fun though we did not take it
seriously.*

It is now about time that we stop taking ASCII seriously!!

And for those who dont know xetex, its is really xɘtex – a pictorial
anagram if written as XƎTEX

However in all fairness I should say that I cannot seem to find my
way to that promised land yet:
- xetex does not quite work whereas pdflatex works smoothly
- mathjax is awesome however its firmly latex (not xetex) based

-------------------
* And the fact that there are recent implementations including web ones means its by no means dead:
http://baruchel.hd.free.fr/apps/apl/
which I think unicode aficionados will enjoy 

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#72308

On 5/30/2014 12:15 PM, Rustom Mody wrote:

> And for those who dont know xetex, its is really xɘtex – a pictorial
> anagram if written as XƎTEX

I believe you mean 'pictorial palindrome', which it is!

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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#72310

On Friday, May 30, 2014 10:07:21 PM UTC+5:30, Terry Reedy wrote:
> On 5/30/2014 12:15 PM, Rustom Mody wrote:
> 
> > And for those who dont know xetex, its is really xɘtex – a pictorial
> > anagram if written as XƎTEX
> 
> I believe you mean 'pictorial palindrome', which it is!
> 

Heh! Getting woozy it looks!

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#72309

On 30/05/2014 17:15, Rustom Mody wrote:
> On Friday, May 30, 2014 8:36:54 PM UTC+5:30, wxjm...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> It is now about time that we stop taking ASCII seriously!!
>

This can't happen in the Python world until there is a sensible approach 
to unicode.  Ah, but wait a minute, the ball was set rolling with Python 
3.0.  Then came PEP 393 and the Flexible String Representation in Python 
3.3 and some strings came down in size by a factor of 75% and in most 
cases it was faster.  Just what do some people want in life, jam on it?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

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#72311

On Friday, May 30, 2014 10:08:04 PM UTC+5:30, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 30/05/2014 17:15, Rustom Mody wrote:
> > On Friday, May 30, 2014 8:36:54 PM UTC+5:30, jmf wrote:
> > It is now about time that we stop taking ASCII seriously!!

> This can't happen in the Python world until there is a sensible approach 
> to unicode.  Ah, but wait a minute, the ball was set rolling with Python 
> 3.0.  Then came PEP 393 and the Flexible String Representation in Python 
> 3.3 and some strings came down in size by a factor of 75% and in most 
> cases it was faster.  Just what do some people want in life, jam on it?

I dont see that these two are related¹

You are talking about the infrastructure needed for writing unicode apps.
The language need not have non-ASCII lexemes for that

I am talking about something quite different.
Think for example of a German wanting to write "Gödel"
According to some conventions (s)he can write Goedel
But if that is forced just because of ASCII/US-104/what-have-u it would justifiably
cause irritation/offense.

Likewise I am talking about the fact that x≠y is prettier than x != y.²

In earlier times the former was not an option.
Today the latter is drawn from an effectively random subset of unicode
only for historical reasons and not anything technologically current.


-----------------------
¹ Ok very very distantly related maybe in the sense that since python is a
key part of modern linux system admin, and getting out of ASCII-jail needs 
the infrastructure to work smoothly in the wider unicode world.

² And probably 100s of other such egs, some random sample of which I have listed:
http://blog.languager.org/2014/04/unicoded-python.html 

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#72313

On 30/05/2014 18:07, Rustom Mody wrote:
> On Friday, May 30, 2014 10:08:04 PM UTC+5:30, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> On 30/05/2014 17:15, Rustom Mody wrote:
>>> On Friday, May 30, 2014 8:36:54 PM UTC+5:30, jmf wrote:
>>> It is now about time that we stop taking ASCII seriously!!
>
>> This can't happen in the Python world until there is a sensible approach
>> to unicode.  Ah, but wait a minute, the ball was set rolling with Python
>> 3.0.  Then came PEP 393 and the Flexible String Representation in Python
>> 3.3 and some strings came down in size by a factor of 75% and in most
>> cases it was faster.  Just what do some people want in life, jam on it?
>
> I dont see that these two are related¹
>
> You are talking about the infrastructure needed for writing unicode apps.
> The language need not have non-ASCII lexemes for that
>
> I am talking about something quite different.
> Think for example of a German wanting to write "Gödel"
> According to some conventions (s)he can write Goedel
> But if that is forced just because of ASCII/US-104/what-have-u it would justifiably
> cause irritation/offense.
>
> Likewise I am talking about the fact that x≠y is prettier than x != y.²
>
> In earlier times the former was not an option.
> Today the latter is drawn from an effectively random subset of unicode
> only for historical reasons and not anything technologically current.
>
>
> -----------------------
> ¹ Ok very very distantly related maybe in the sense that since python is a
> key part of modern linux system admin, and getting out of ASCII-jail needs
> the infrastructure to work smoothly in the wider unicode world.
>
> ² And probably 100s of other such egs, some random sample of which I have listed:
> http://blog.languager.org/2014/04/unicoded-python.html
>

I just happen to like fishing :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

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#72352

On Friday, May 30, 2014 10:37:00 PM UTC+5:30, Rustom Mody wrote:

> You are talking about the infrastructure needed for writing unicode apps.
> The language need not have non-ASCII lexemes for that

> I am talking about something quite different.
> Think for example of a German wanting to write "Gödel"
> According to some conventions (s)he can write Goedel
> But if that is forced just because of ASCII/US-104/what-have-u it would justifiably
> cause irritation/offense.

Curiously I just saw this tex/emacs question/answer elsewhere –
particularly amusing the first 'char' of the answer.

Question:
| I'm a new Emacs/Auctex User. Auctex for Emacs is amazing but
| there are some little things could be better. When generating a
| section with c-c c-s the label ist generated automatically. But
| if there is an german Umlaut in the section title like 'ä' this
| becomes just 'a' in the label. Is there any possibility that
| auctex will substitute the 'ä' by 'ae' and not by 'a'?

Answer:  
| '�' is not possible, since latex can not handle Umlauts in references.
| For 'ae' I'm sure someone is able to provide a little patch. 

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#72364

Le dimanche 1 juin 2014 03:48:07 UTC+2, Rustom Mody a écrit :
> On Friday, May 30, 2014 10:37:00 PM UTC+5:30, Rustom Mody wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > You are talking about the infrastructure needed for writing unicode apps.
> 
> > The language need not have non-ASCII lexemes for that
> 
> 
> 
> > I am talking about something quite different.
> 
> > Think for example of a German wanting to write "Gödel"
> 
> > According to some conventions (s)he can write Goedel
> 
> > But if that is forced just because of ASCII/US-104/what-have-u it would justifiably
> 
> > cause irritation/offense.
> 
> 
> 
> Curiously I just saw this tex/emacs question/answer elsewhere –
> 
> particularly amusing the first 'char' of the answer.
> 
> 
> 
> Question:
> 
> | I'm a new Emacs/Auctex User. Auctex for Emacs is amazing but
> 
> | there are some little things could be better. When generating a
> 
> | section with c-c c-s the label ist generated automatically. But
> 
> | if there is an german Umlaut in the section title like 'ä' this
> 
> | becomes just 'a' in the label. Is there any possibility that
> 
> | auctex will substitute the 'ä' by 'ae' and not by 'a'?
> 
> 
> 
> Answer:  
> 
> | '�' is not possible, since latex can not handle Umlauts in references.
> 
> | For 'ae' I'm sure someone is able to provide a little patch.

%%%%%%%%%%

\begin{document}
""" A small text, αβγ. {\label{étiquette€α}}\\
See page \pageref{étiquette€α}. """
\end{document}

>>> # copy/paste from the generated pdf in my interactive
>>> # interpreter.
>>> """ A small text, αβγ.
... See page 1. """
' A small text, αβγ.\nSee page 1. '
>>>

jmf

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#72365

Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com>:

> On Friday, May 30, 2014 10:37:00 PM UTC+5:30, Rustom Mody wrote:
>> Think for example of a German wanting to write "Gödel"
>> According to some conventions (s)he can write Goedel
>
> [...]
>
> | if there is an german Umlaut in the section title like 'ä' this
> | becomes just 'a' in the label. Is there any possibility that auctex
> | will substitute the 'ä' by 'ae' and not by 'a'?
>
> Answer:  
> | '�' is not possible, since latex can not handle Umlauts in
> | references. For 'ae' I'm sure someone is able to provide a little
> | patch.

As a Finnish-speaker, I hope that patch doesn't become default behavior.
Too many times, we have been victimized by the German conventions. A
Finnish-speaker would much rather see

   Järvenpää => Jarvenpaa
   Öllölä => Ollola
   Kärkkäinen => Karkkainen

than

   Järvenpää => Jaervenpaeae
   Öllölä => Oelloelae
   Kärkkäinen => Kaerkkaeinen


Marko

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#72366

On Sun, Jun 1, 2014 at 5:58 PM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
> As a Finnish-speaker, I hope that patch doesn't become default behavior.
> Too many times, we have been victimized by the German conventions. A
> Finnish-speaker would much rather see
>
>    Järvenpää => Jarvenpaa
>    Öllölä => Ollola
>    Kärkkäinen => Karkkainen
>
> than
>
>    Järvenpää => Jaervenpaeae
>    Öllölä => Oelloelae
>    Kärkkäinen => Kaerkkaeinen

It's even worse than that. The rules for ASCIIfying adorned characters
vary according to context - Müller and Mueller are different names,
and in many contexts should sort and compare differently, and I
remember reading somewhere that there's a context in which it's more
useful to decompose ü to u rather than ue. There is no "safe" lossy
transformation that can be done to any language's words, and this is
no exception. ASCIIfication has to be accepted as flawed; this issue
(an inability to handle non-ASCII labels) is similar to a lot of blog
URLs - http://rosuav.blogspot.com/2013/08/20th-international-g-festival-awards.html
is talking about the "International G&S Festival" awards, but the URL
drops the "&S" part. (If you absolutely have to transmit something
losslessly in pure ASCII, you need a scheme like Punycode, which is a
lot less clean and readable than a decomposition scheme.)

Of course, the better solution is to permit the full Unicode alphabet
in identifiers...

ChrisA

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#72367

On Sunday, June 1, 2014 2:01:09 PM UTC+5:30, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 1, 2014 at 5:58 PM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> > As a Finnish-speaker, I hope that patch doesn't become default behavior.
> > Too many times, we have been victimized by the German conventions. A
> > Finnish-speaker would much rather see
> >    Järvenpää => Jarvenpaa
> >    Öllölä => Ollola
> >    Kärkkäinen => Karkkainen
> > than
> >    Järvenpää => Jaervenpaeae
> >    Öllölä => Oelloelae
> >    Kärkkäinen => Kaerkkaeinen

> It's even worse than that. The rules for ASCIIfying adorned characters
> vary according to context - Müller and Mueller are different names,
> and in many contexts should sort and compare differently, and I
> remember reading somewhere that there's a context in which it's more
> useful to decompose ü to u rather than ue. There is no "safe" lossy
> transformation that can be done to any language's words, and this is
> no exception. ASCIIfication has to be accepted as flawed; this issue
> (an inability to handle non-ASCII labels) is similar to a lot of blog
> URLs - http://rosuav.blogspot.com/2013/08/20th-international-g-festival-awards.html
> is talking about the "International G&S Festival" awards, but the URL
> drops the "&S" part. (If you absolutely have to transmit something
> losslessly in pure ASCII, you need a scheme like Punycode, which is a
> lot less clean and readable than a decomposition scheme.)

> Of course, the better solution is to permit the full Unicode alphabet
> in identifiers...

Yes that is the real point.

Changing the current behavior which maps [ö,ä…] →  [o,a…] to a new
behavior that maps it to [oe,ae…], then arguing that this should/should
not become default is the wrong battle.

The more useful line is: Why have this conversion at all?
Until hardly 3 years ago html authors wrote non-ASCII as chars as html entities.
Now the current standard practice is directly to write the character and
make sure the page is explicitly utf-8.

Its only a question of time before this becomes standard practice in
all domains

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