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Linux distros w/o Python in "base" installation

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  Linux distros w/o Python in "base" installation Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-08-11 18:53 +0000
    Re: Linux distros w/o Python in "base" installation Chris Rebert <clp2@rebertia.com> - 2014-08-11 12:02 -0700
      Re: Linux distros w/o Python in "base" installation Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-08-11 20:13 +0000
        Re: Linux distros w/o Python in "base" installation Ned Deily <nad@acm.org> - 2014-08-11 14:36 -0700
        Re: Linux distros w/o Python in "base" installation Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-12 09:35 +1000
          Re: Linux distros w/o Python in "base" installation Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-08-12 02:33 +0000
        Re: Linux distros w/o Python in "base" installation Ned Deily <nad@acm.org> - 2014-08-12 00:18 -0700
        Re: Linux distros w/o Python in "base" installation David Palao <dpalao.python@gmail.com> - 2014-08-12 09:59 +0200
          Re: Linux distros w/o Python in "base" installation Fabien <fabien.maussion@gmail.com> - 2014-08-12 11:53 +0200
    Re: Linux distros w/o Python in "base" installation Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-08-11 21:36 -0700
    Re: Linux distros w/o Python in "base" installation Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick <kwpolska@gmail.com> - 2014-08-12 12:00 +0200
      Re: Linux distros w/o Python in "base" installation Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-08-12 14:12 +0000
        Re: Linux distros w/o Python in "base" installation Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-08-12 09:49 -0600

#76068 — Linux distros w/o Python in "base" installation

I just installed Arch Linux for the first time, and was surprosed to
find that Python isn't installed as part of a "base" system.  It's
also not included in the 'base-devel' package group.  It's trivial to
install, but I'd still pretty surprised it's not there by default.  I
guess I've spent too much time with Gentoo, Debian, and RedHat
derivitives which require Python be installed.

I've probably used at least a dozen Linux distros over the years, and
this is the first time I've noticed that Python wasn't installed by
default.

Just for the sake of curiosity, are there any other significant
desktop/server Linux distros that don't come "out of the box" with
Python?

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! If I am elected no one
                                  at               will ever have to do their
                              gmail.com            laundry again!

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#76069

On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 11:53 AM, Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> I just installed Arch Linux for the first time, and was surprosed to
> find that Python isn't installed as part of a "base" system.  It's
> also not included in the 'base-devel' package group.  It's trivial to
> install, but I'd still pretty surprised it's not there by default.  I
> guess I've spent too much time with Gentoo, Debian, and RedHat
> derivitives which require Python be installed.
>
> I've probably used at least a dozen Linux distros over the years, and
> this is the first time I've noticed that Python wasn't installed by
> default.
>
> Just for the sake of curiosity, are there any other significant
> desktop/server Linux distros that don't come "out of the box" with
> Python?

It would seem that such distros are opting to not be LSB-compliant?:
http://refspecs.linuxfoundation.org/LSB_4.1.0/LSB-Languages/LSB-Languages/pylocation.html

Cheers,
Chris

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#76070

On 2014-08-11, Chris Rebert <clp2@rebertia.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 11:53 AM, Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> I just installed Arch Linux for the first time, and was surprosed to
>> find that Python isn't installed as part of a "base" system.  It's
>> also not included in the 'base-devel' package group.  It's trivial to
>> install, but I'd still pretty surprised it's not there by default.  I
>> guess I've spent too much time with Gentoo, Debian, and RedHat
>> derivitives which require Python be installed.
>>
>> I've probably used at least a dozen Linux distros over the years, and
>> this is the first time I've noticed that Python wasn't installed by
>> default.
>>
>> Just for the sake of curiosity, are there any other significant
>> desktop/server Linux distros that don't come "out of the box" with
>> Python?
>
> It would seem that such distros are opting to not be LSB-compliant?:
> http://refspecs.linuxfoundation.org/LSB_4.1.0/LSB-Languages/LSB-Languages/pylocation.html

Apparently.  Perhaps theres an "enable LSB compliance" option
somewhere in the Arch install docs, but I didn't see it...

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Somewhere in Tenafly,
                                  at               New Jersey, a chiropractor
                              gmail.com            is viewing "Leave it to
                                                   Beaver"!

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#76076

In article <lsb84u$21c$1@reader1.panix.com>,
 Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Apparently.  Perhaps theres an "enable LSB compliance" option
> somewhere in the Arch install docs, but I didn't see it...

Also beware that, unlike most other distributions and contrary to 
recommended practice, Arch has chosen to make Python 3 its default, that 
is, when everything is installed, `python` invokes `python3`, rather 
than `python2`.  So you may need to change shebang lines in scripts, etc.

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/python

-- 
 Ned Deily,
 nad@acm.org

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#76088

On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 7:36 AM, Ned Deily <nad@acm.org> wrote:
> In article <lsb84u$21c$1@reader1.panix.com>,
>  Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> Apparently.  Perhaps theres an "enable LSB compliance" option
>> somewhere in the Arch install docs, but I didn't see it...
>
> Also beware that, unlike most other distributions and contrary to
> recommended practice, Arch has chosen to make Python 3 its default, that
> is, when everything is installed, `python` invokes `python3`, rather
> than `python2`.  So you may need to change shebang lines in scripts, etc.
>
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/python

Well, it only *became* contrary to recommended practice in response to
Arch doing it and everyone seeing the issues it caused :) Personally,
I'm glad they did. Lets those of us who follow "slower" distros (I'm
running Debian) get the benefit of someone else's hindsight.

ChrisA

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#76097

On 2014-08-11, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 7:36 AM, Ned Deily <nad@acm.org> wrote:
>> In article <lsb84u$21c$1@reader1.panix.com>,
>>  Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> Apparently.  Perhaps theres an "enable LSB compliance" option
>>> somewhere in the Arch install docs, but I didn't see it...
>>
>> Also beware that, unlike most other distributions and contrary to
>> recommended practice, Arch has chosen to make Python 3 its default,
>> that is, when everything is installed, `python` invokes `python3`,
>> rather than `python2`.  So you may need to change shebang lines in
>> scripts, etc.
>>
>> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/python

I noticed that when I told it to install "python" it wanted to install
3.4 before I told it "no".

> Well, it only *became* contrary to recommended practice in response
> to Arch doing it and everyone seeing the issues it caused :)
> Personally, I'm glad they did. Lets those of us who follow "slower"
> distros (I'm running Debian) get the benefit of someone else's
> hindsight.

At the moment, I only have python2 installed and have manually
set up symlinks so that typing "python" does what the rest of the
world (including me) expects.

-- 
Grant

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#76103

In article 
<CAPTjJmpFYoxnP-1W2-_8riaOz30W2LSz5Q7Ky4fBpC-BPMvA-w@mail.gmail.com>,
 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, it only *became* contrary to recommended practice in response to
> Arch doing it and everyone seeing the issues it caused :) Personally,
> I'm glad they did. Lets those of us who follow "slower" distros (I'm
> running Debian) get the benefit of someone else's hindsight.

Well, many people thought that the problems caused by changing "python" 
to mean "python3" at this stage in its lifecycle were so obvious that 
there was no need to formalize them in a PEP.  Arch proved us wrong, 
hence PEP 394.

http://legacy.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0394/

-- 
 Ned Deily,
 nad@acm.org

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#76106

2014-08-11 23:36 GMT+02:00 Ned Deily <nad@acm.org>:
> In article <lsb84u$21c$1@reader1.panix.com>,
>  Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> Apparently.  Perhaps theres an "enable LSB compliance" option
>> somewhere in the Arch install docs, but I didn't see it...
>
> Also beware that, unlike most other distributions and contrary to
> recommended practice, Arch has chosen to make Python 3 its default, that
> is, when everything is installed, `python` invokes `python3`, rather
> than `python2`.  So you may need to change shebang lines in scripts, etc.
>
> https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/python
>
> --
>  Ned Deily,
>  nad@acm.org
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Also Gentoo uses Python3 by default for some months now. The positive
side effect for me has been that I started seriously to switch to
python3.

Best

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#76107

On 12.08.2014 09:59, David Palao wrote:
> Also Gentoo uses Python3 by default for some months now. The positive
> side effect for me has been that I started seriously to switch to
> python3.

it's a matter of months for debian/ubuntu to rely only on python3 code 
too, while still respecting PEP 394:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Python/3

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#76098

On Tuesday, August 12, 2014 12:23:57 AM UTC+5:30, Grant Edwards wrote:
> I just installed Arch Linux for the first time, and was surprosed to
> find that Python isn't installed as part of a "base" system.  It's
> also not included in the 'base-devel' package group.  It's trivial to
> install, but I'd still pretty surprised it's not there by default.  I
> guess I've spent too much time with Gentoo, Debian, and RedHat
> derivitives which require Python be installed.

> I've probably used at least a dozen Linux distros over the years, and
> this is the first time I've noticed that Python wasn't installed by
> default.

> Just for the sake of curiosity, are there any other significant
> desktop/server Linux distros that don't come "out of the box" with
> Python?

I see on my system (debian Jessie aka 'testing') these packages installed:

lsb,
lsb-{base,core,cxx,desktop,graphics,languages,
     multimedia,printing,release,security}

Dont remember the details but I think I had to install one/some maybe
(just lsb?) and that installed all the others.

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#76108

On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 8:53 PM, Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> I just installed Arch Linux for the first time, and was surprosed to
> find that Python isn't installed as part of a "base" system.  It's
> also not included in the 'base-devel' package group.  It's trivial to
> install, but I'd still pretty surprised it's not there by default.  I
> guess I've spent too much time with Gentoo, Debian, and RedHat
> derivitives which require Python be installed.
>
> I've probably used at least a dozen Linux distros over the years, and
> this is the first time I've noticed that Python wasn't installed by
> default.

Arch has a different idea of “base system”.  The base group contains
the most crucial packages needed to run an Arch Linux system, and that
is all.  And you do not need Python to do so.  Nevertheless, most
people will likely install Python by themselves, or with a package
that depends on Python.

On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 9:02 PM, Chris Rebert <clp2@rebertia.com> wrote:
> It would seem that such distros are opting to not be LSB-compliant?:
> http://refspecs.linuxfoundation.org/LSB_4.1.0/LSB-Languages/LSB-Languages/pylocation.html

Arch does not really care about LSB, AFAIK.

-- 
Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick <http://chriswarrick.com/>
PGP: 5EAAEA16
stop html mail | always bottom-post | only UTF-8 makes sense

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#76115

On 2014-08-12, Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick <kwpolska@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 8:53 PM, Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> I just installed Arch Linux for the first time, and was surprosed to
>> find that Python isn't installed as part of a "base" system.  It's
>> also not included in the 'base-devel' package group.  It's trivial to
>> install, but I'd still pretty surprised it's not there by default.  I
>> guess I've spent too much time with Gentoo, Debian, and RedHat
>> derivitives which require Python be installed.
>>
>> I've probably used at least a dozen Linux distros over the years, and
>> this is the first time I've noticed that Python wasn't installed by
>> default.
>
> Arch has a different idea of “base system”.  The base group contains
> the most crucial packages needed to run an Arch Linux system, and that
> is all.

That's true of Gentoo as well, but it includes Python.

> And you do not need Python to do so.

That's the part that surprised me.  It's been a _long_ time since I've
run a Linux distro that didn't require Python as a crucial system
package.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Those people look
                                  at               exactly like Donnie and
                              gmail.com            Marie Osmond!!

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#76121

On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 8:12 AM, Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 2014-08-12, Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick <kwpolska@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 8:53 PM, Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> I just installed Arch Linux for the first time, and was surprosed to
>>> find that Python isn't installed as part of a "base" system.  It's
>>> also not included in the 'base-devel' package group.  It's trivial to
>>> install, but I'd still pretty surprised it's not there by default.  I
>>> guess I've spent too much time with Gentoo, Debian, and RedHat
>>> derivitives which require Python be installed.
>>>
>>> I've probably used at least a dozen Linux distros over the years, and
>>> this is the first time I've noticed that Python wasn't installed by
>>> default.
>>
>> Arch has a different idea of “base system”.  The base group contains
>> the most crucial packages needed to run an Arch Linux system, and that
>> is all.
>
> That's true of Gentoo as well, but it includes Python.

Because Portage is written in Python. Otherwise Gentoo would probably
omit it from the base system as well.

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