Path: csiph.com!usenet.pasdenom.info!weretis.net!feeder4.news.weretis.net!rt.uk.eu.org!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed4.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!newsgate.cistron.nl!newsgate.news.xs4all.nl!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.005 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 0.99; '*S*': 0.00; 'yet.': 0.04; 'argument': 0.05; '*not*': 0.07; 'though:': 0.07; 'variables': 0.07; '*is*': 0.09; 'from:addr:ethan': 0.09; 'from:addr:stoneleaf.us': 0.09; 'from:name:ethan furman': 0.09; 'message-id:@stoneleaf.us': 0.09; 'variables.': 0.09; '~ethan~': 0.09; 'cease': 0.16; 'created.': 0.16; 'variables,': 0.16; 'language': 0.16; 'wrote:': 0.18; 'variable': 0.18; 'module': 0.19; "python's": 0.19; 'seems': 0.21; 'issue.': 0.22; 'header:User-Agent:1': 0.23; "aren't": 0.24; 'exists': 0.24; 'header:In-Reply-To:1': 0.27; 'function': 0.29; 'correct': 0.29; 'chris': 0.29; 'am,': 0.29; "i'm": 0.30; '(although': 0.31; 'about.': 0.31; 'python"': 0.31; 'charset:us- ascii': 0.36; 'to:addr:python-list': 0.38; 'issue': 0.38; 'pm,': 0.38; 'anything': 0.39; 'though,': 0.39; 'delete': 0.39; 'to:addr:python.org': 0.39; 'even': 0.60; 'new': 0.61; 'received:173': 0.61; 'simple': 0.61; 'name': 0.63; 'more': 0.64; 'talking': 0.65; 'sound': 0.68; 'respect': 0.70; '"can': 0.84; 'confirmed,': 0.84; 'ethan': 0.84; 'furman': 0.84; 'shadow': 0.84; 'responses': 0.93 Date: Sat, 10 May 2014 18:28:43 -0700 From: Ethan Furman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121010 Thunderbird/16.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: python-list@python.org Subject: Re: Values and objects References: <235C4BFA-9770-481A-9FCF-21C3F036769C@gmail.com> <5368681D.8070602@islandtraining.com> <87ppjpwafk.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <536ad8f2$0$29965$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <87zjiqbmy5.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <536d7a7d$0$29980$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <9cc0ebf9-dbed-4d3d-91fc-2abb9b0103d0@googlegroups.com> <536dc3f7$0$29980$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <536decca$0$29980$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <536E799D.6080602@stoneleaf.us> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - gator3304.hostgator.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - python.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - stoneleaf.us X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 173.12.184.233 X-Exim-ID: 1WjIZH-0005Zi-EP X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: ([173.12.184.233]) [173.12.184.233]:34145 X-Source-Auth: ethan+stoneleaf.us X-Email-Count: 1 X-Source-Cap: dG9idWs7dG9idWs7Z2F0b3IzMzA0Lmhvc3RnYXRvci5jb20= X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 32 NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6 X-Trace: 1399773079 news.xs4all.nl 2835 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:38798 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:71280 On 05/10/2014 04:18 PM, Chris Angelico wrote: > On Sun, May 11, 2014 at 5:10 AM, Ethan Furman wrote: >> And if you don't like that argument (although it is a perfectly sound and >> correct argument), think of the module name space: >> >> >> ret = spam >> spam = 23 >> >> will net you a simple NameError, because spam has not yet been created. > > What about this, though: > > ret = int > int = 23 > > That will *not* net you a NameError, because 'int' exists in an outer > scope (builtins). You can create a new module-scope variable and it > will immediately begin to shadow a builtin; you can delete that > variable and it will immediately cease to shadow that builtin. That's > the difference I'm talking about. With function-local variables, they > all have to exist (as other responses confirmed, that *is* a language > guarantee), even though some of them aren't bound to anything yet. Well, with function variables they have to exist *when you use them*. ;) This seems like more of a scoping issue than a "can we create variables in Python" issue. I am curious, though, what other python's do with respect to function variables. -- ~Ethan~