Path: csiph.com!v102.xanadu-bbs.net!xanadu-bbs.net!news.albasani.net!rt.uk.eu.org!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed1a.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!newsgate.cistron.nl!newsgate.news.xs4all.nl!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.006 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 0.99; '*S*': 0.00; 'python.': 0.02; 'python,': 0.02; 'languages,': 0.04; 'assignment': 0.07; 'extent': 0.07; 'falls': 0.09; 'imply': 0.09; 'models.': 0.09; 'received:80.91': 0.09; 'received:80.91.229': 0.09; 'received:gmane.org': 0.09; 'received:list': 0.09; 'python': 0.11; 'definition.': 0.16; 'finney': 0.16; 'proportion': 0.16; 'received:80.91.229.3': 0.16; 'received:plane.gmane.org': 0.16; 'specific,': 0.16; 'varies': 0.16; 'language': 0.16; 'bit': 0.19; 'seems': 0.21; 'header:User- Agent:1': 0.23; 'header:X-Complaints-To:1': 0.27; 'appear': 0.29; "i'm": 0.30; 'writes:': 0.31; 'community': 0.33; 'common': 0.35; 'something': 0.35; 'but': 0.35; 'false': 0.36; 'wrong': 0.37; 'clear': 0.37; 'ben': 0.38; 'to:addr:python-list': 0.38; 'anything': 0.39; 'to:addr:python.org': 0.39; 'enough': 0.39; 'received:org': 0.40; 'high': 0.63; 'term': 0.63; 'subject:The': 0.64; 'teaching': 0.64; 'more': 0.64; 'different': 0.65; 'skip:\xe2 10': 0.65; 'here': 0.66; 'side': 0.67; 'beat': 0.68; 'forums': 0.68; 'frequently': 0.68; 'nobody': 0.68; 'subjectcharset:utf-8': 0.72; 'us,': 0.73; '8bit%:43': 0.74; 'hand': 0.80; 'harmful': 0.84; 'received:125': 0.84; 'philips': 0.91 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: python-list@python.org From: Ben Finney Subject: Re: The =?utf-8?Q?=EF=BF=BD?= debate Date: Fri, 09 May 2014 13:13:01 +1000 References: <235C4BFA-9770-481A-9FCF-21C3F036769C@gmail.com> <5368681D.8070602@islandtraining.com> <85zjiuea37.fsf_-_@benfinney.id.au> <8738gmxgay.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <87tx91warf.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <85eh05cdjx.fsf@benfinney.id.au> <87ha50hagu.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <8738gkh42a.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <8538gkaxr8.fsf@benfinney.id.au> <536c1b2e$0$29965$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: jigong.madmonks.org X-Public-Key-ID: 0xAC128405 X-Public-Key-Fingerprint: 517C F14B B2F3 98B0 CB35 4855 B8B2 4C06 AC12 8405 X-Public-Key-URL: http://www.benfinney.id.au/contact/bfinney-pubkey.asc X-Post-From: Ben Finney User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.4 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:bYWRYGKH4bCPLZZ+2EHwq4JgR8w= X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 34 NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6 X-Trace: 1399605199 news.xs4all.nl 2906 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:38218 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:71149 Gregory Ewing writes: > If you look at the way the word "variable" is used across a variety of > language communities, the common meaning is more or less "something > that can appear on the left hand side of an assignment statement". The clear experience from years in this and other Python forums is that newcomers frequently draw from the term “variable” additional, specific, inferences that are *false* for Python. My position is that the responsibility for avoiding terms that are likely to encourage newcomers to draw false inferences falls to us, as existing knowledgeable community members teaching newcomers. > Nobody seems to complain about using the term "assigment" in relation > to Python, despite it meaning something a bit different from what it > means in some other languages, so I don't see anything wrong with > using the term "variable" with the above definition. To the extent that the term encourages or enables a mental model that is significantly likely to lead to false inferences, the term is harmful for a newcomer's learning. That extent varies with each newcomer, of course; I'm pointing out that the proportion of newcomers arriving here with a mental model of “variable” which will produce false inferences is high enough that the term is best replaced by terms that imply more-accurate mental models. -- \ “A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me | `\ at kick boxing.” —Emo Philips | _o__) | Ben Finney