Path: csiph.com!newsfeed.hal-mli.net!feeder3.hal-mli.net!cs.uu.nl!news.stack.nl!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed1.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!newsgate.cistron.nl!newsgate.news.xs4all.nl!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.013 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 0.97; '*S*': 0.00; 'subject:Python': 0.06; 'variables': 0.07; '2004': 0.09; 'models.': 0.09; 'received:80.91': 0.09; 'received:80.91.229': 0.09; 'received:gmane.org': 0.09; 'received:list': 0.09; 'stating': 0.09; 'variables.': 0.09; '\xe2\x80\x94': 0.09; 'python': 0.11; 'finney': 0.16; 'negative,': 0.16; 'positive,': 0.16; 'rather,': 0.16; 'received:80.91.229.3': 0.16; 'received:plane.gmane.org': 0.16; 'variables,': 0.16; 'folks': 0.16; 'language': 0.16; 'pointed': 0.19; "python's": 0.19; 'header:User-Agent:1': 0.23; 'replace': 0.24; 'references': 0.26; 'header:X-Complaints-To:1': 0.27; 'point': 0.28; 'points': 0.29; "doesn't": 0.30; 'that.': 0.31; 'helpful.': 0.31; 'writes:': 0.31; 'anyone': 0.31; 'but': 0.35; 'should': 0.36; 'positive': 0.37; 'so,': 0.37; 'being': 0.38; 'ben': 0.38; 'to:addr:python-list': 0.38; 'rather': 0.38; 'does': 0.39; 'to:addr:python.org': 0.39; 'received:org': 0.40; 'even': 0.60; 'negative': 0.60; 'most': 0.60; 'new': 0.61; 'skip:* 10': 0.61; 'providing': 0.61; 'valuable': 0.63; 'subject:The': 0.64; 'provide': 0.64; 'more': 0.64; 'relatively': 0.65; 'beautiful': 0.68; '8bit%:21': 0.69; 'superior': 0.69; 'helping': 0.70; 'subjectcharset:utf-8': 0.72; 'subject:have': 0.80; '*and*': 0.84; 'received:125': 0.84; 'faith': 0.91 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: python-list@python.org From: Ben Finney Subject: Re: The =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=9Cdoes?= Python have =?utf-8?Q?variables?= =?utf-8?Q?=3F=E2=80=9D?= debate Date: Thu, 08 May 2014 05:57:49 +1000 References: <235C4BFA-9770-481A-9FCF-21C3F036769C@gmail.com> <5368681D.8070602@islandtraining.com> <85zjiuea37.fsf_-_@benfinney.id.au> <8738gmxgay.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: jigong.madmonks.org X-Public-Key-ID: 0xAC128405 X-Public-Key-Fingerprint: 517C F14B B2F3 98B0 CB35 4855 B8B2 4C06 AC12 8405 X-Public-Key-URL: http://www.benfinney.id.au/contact/bfinney-pubkey.asc X-Post-From: Ben Finney User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.4 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:oNvc8J8R/qmstngx+quFdYCHb5E= X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 34 NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6 X-Trace: 1399492684 news.xs4all.nl 2901 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:49590 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:71051 Mark H Harris writes: > So, when anyone points out that Python does not have variables, but > rather Python has names bound to objects... they are being most > helpful. > > As I pointed out earlier, I think the better approach would be to find > positive language for helping new folks understand Python's beautiful > heart, than the relatively negative language of stating Python has no > variables. You are implying a dichotomy which I don't think is useful: that providing accurate models is “a better approach” than pointing out existing fallacies. Rather, the better approach IMO is to use *both*: point out existing fallacies *and* replace them with more accurate models. That's why I always try to say “Python doesn't have variables the way you might know from many other languages”, *and* say “instead, it has references bound to objects” — *in the same message*. Negative, to point out the fallacy; positive, to provide the replacement. Presenting an accurate model is valuable, but it's much less valuable in isolation than pointing out that the accurate model *is superior to*, and should replace, the existing less-accurate model in the receiver's brain. One must necessarily use negative language to achieve that. -- \ “Religious faith is the one species of human ignorance that | `\ will not admit of even the *possibility* of correction.” —Sam | _o__) Harris, _The End of Faith_, 2004 | Ben Finney