Path: csiph.com!x330-a1.tempe.blueboxinc.net!usenet.pasdenom.info!weretis.net!feeder4.news.weretis.net!feeder.news-service.com!news2.euro.net!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed6.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.011 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 0.98; '*S*': 0.00; 'warnings': 0.05; 'subject:when': 0.07; 'python': 0.08; '>>>>': 0.09; 'garbage': 0.09; 'am,': 0.12; '16,': 0.15; 'altogether.': 0.16; 'harsh.': 0.16; 'highlighting': 0.16; 'leaks': 0.16; 'received:mindspring.com': 0.16; 'semanchuk': 0.16; 'subject:builtin': 0.16; 'such.': 0.16; 'x-mailer:apple mail (2.1084)': 0.16; 'wrote:': 0.16; '>>>': 0.18; 'example.': 0.18; 'memory': 0.21; 'sound': 0.21; 'header:In-Reply-To:1': 0.22; 'cheers': 0.23; 'happen.': 0.23; 'pm,': 0.24; 'there.': 0.24; 'aug': 0.24; "python's": 0.24; 'fine': 0.26; 'thanks.': 0.26; "i'm": 0.27; 'problem': 0.28; 'not.': 0.30; "skip:' 10": 0.30; 'subject:?': 0.31; 'changes': 0.31; 'cases': 0.32; 'word.': 0.32; 'received:24': 0.32; 'this.': 0.32; 'yet': 0.32; 'does': 0.32; 'it.': 0.33; 'there': 0.33; 'to:addr:python-list': 0.33; 'regardless': 0.34; 'things': 0.34; 'all.': 0.34; 'help,': 0.35; 'charset:us-ascii': 0.36; 'skip:" 10': 0.36; 'but': 0.37; 'something': 0.37; 'could': 0.38; 'think': 0.38; 'strong': 0.38; 'subject:: ': 0.39; 'header:Mime-Version:1': 0.39; 'to:addr:python.org': 0.39; 'might': 0.40; "it's": 0.40; 'where': 0.40; 'header:Message-Id:1': 0.61; 'our': 0.63; 'believe': 0.65; 'internet.': 0.65; 'collection': 0.73; 'productivity': 0.80; '11:41': 0.84; 'knows,': 0.84; 'received:69.73': 0.84; 'serious.': 0.84; 'increases': 0.93; 'beneficial': 0.95 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1084) Subject: Re: Why no warnings when re-assigning builtin names? From: Philip Semanchuk In-Reply-To: <4E4A98AE.1070708@stoneleaf.us> Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2011 12:32:52 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable References: <4e49c89a$0$30001$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <4e49fcd7$0$29974$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <2A3EB048-1F10-46E8-973F-9BBD303E7B9F@semanchuk.com> <4E4A8F94.50706@stoneleaf.us> <4E4A98AE.1070708@stoneleaf.us> To: python-list list X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1084) X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - deimos.nocdirect.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - python.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - semanchuk.com X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 44 NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6 X-Trace: 1313512378 news.xs4all.nl 23880 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:45508 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: x330-a1.tempe.blueboxinc.net comp.lang.python:11577 On Aug 16, 2011, at 12:19 PM, Ethan Furman wrote: > Philip Semanchuk wrote: >> On Aug 16, 2011, at 11:41 AM, Ethan Furman wrote: >>> Philip Semanchuk wrote: >>>> If we are to eschew warnings in >>>> cases where they might be highlighting something harmless, then we = would >>>> have no warnings at all. > >> >>> Sounds good to me. ;) Keep such things in the IDE's, and then = those > >> who desire such behavior can have it there. Do not clutter Python = with > >> such. >> You wink, yet you sound serious.=20 >=20 > The smiley is an attempt to not sound harsh. Thanks. It's hard to know on the Internet. >>> I don't see that as a problem that Python needs to solve. >> "need" is a strong word. Python will be fine regardless of whether = this changes > > or not. I believe Python could be improved; that's all I'm arguing. >=20 > Python can be improved -- I don't see 'hand-holding' as an = improvement. IDEs and lints can do this. When you say "hand-holding", I hear a pejorative. That makes "I don't = see 'hand-holding' as an improvement" a tautology. Have I misheard you? I think Python does lots of beneficial hand-holding. Garbage collection = is a good example. $DIETY knows, people have been struggling with manual = memory management in C and its ilk for a long time. Even though there = are good tools to help, memory leaks still happen. Python increases our = productivity by allowing us to forget about manual memory management = altogether. I can do it with tools like valgrind, but Python's makes the = point moot. Is that hand-holding? If so, I'm all for it. Cheers Philip=