Path: csiph.com!v102.xanadu-bbs.net!xanadu-bbs.net!feeder.erje.net!eu.feeder.erje.net!weretis.net!feeder4.news.weretis.net!cs.uu.nl!news.stack.nl!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed3a.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.076 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 0.85; '*S*': 0.00; 'subject:How': 0.10; 'cc:addr:python-list': 0.11; 'backward': 0.16; 'from:addr:rosuav': 0.16; 'from:name:chris angelico': 0.16; 'lisp': 0.16; 'lisp,': 0.16; 'messy': 0.16; 'subject:security': 0.16; 'variants': 0.16; 'wrote:': 0.18; 'wed,': 0.18; 'thu,': 0.19; 'cc:addr:python.org': 0.22; 'initial': 0.24; 'cc:2**0': 0.24; 'url:edu': 0.26; 'header :In-Reply-To:1': 0.27; 'appear': 0.29; 'am,': 0.29; 'nature': 0.30; 'originally': 0.30; 'message-id:@mail.gmail.com': 0.30; 'usually': 0.31; "d'aprano": 0.31; 'steven': 0.31; 'worked': 0.33; 'common': 0.35; 'but': 0.35; 'received:google.com': 0.35; 'really': 0.36; '+0200,': 0.36; 'described': 0.36; 'scheme': 0.36; 'issue': 0.38; 'enough': 0.39; 'called': 0.40; 'further': 0.61; 'you.': 0.62; 'different': 0.65; 'here': 0.66; 'between': 0.67; 'mar': 0.68; 'design.': 0.68; 'flash': 0.69; 'iterative': 0.84; 'url:stanford': 0.84; 'mistake': 0.91; 'to:none': 0.92 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:cc :content-type; bh=R4wmzRPhmMG3zlHNUZwea55WwIDPG5xP1X6s0xQZZwg=; b=qPCYsVt3K6g5Xzn/mbL5ehQjseoWBOA6LTN+ESH+Yx8K0WxeSkoS/8emTn5mU1h0TX vkGmNLjjSwKcT6ulg7QOKgorXeWGSFFmN/lZy/TbVxQnA9UF0wkR+PPInP7REQXVLoPA fsGdIECqhF2tH4RK6JfhhRgrrSEcyc2AJSY+BV+UlHar+gXdBDYurm5W5MkhdPhrk9Ri yhd9ffNPxdtVUgShbZmH5Rw9AUyADvHH44mmGSVXpY/tkbUL0JNw780uI+dVSTGC/gIj vDI+UA3vjX8T6DMA7aUrwnlvamVu2g9ayqq99apoTmIbamEXuHhL9sRA2AVDmUbMg+5x LtGA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.118.71 with SMTP id kk7mr9139008pab.14.1394046010433; Wed, 05 Mar 2014 11:00:10 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <53177025$0$29985$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> References: <20140303221926.GA57537@cskk.homeip.net> <99ca7396-bcb8-49f9-b486-56ae88aa00e5@googlegroups.com> <87d2i1mvg7.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <87zjl47l18.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <53177025$0$29985$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2014 06:00:10 +1100 Subject: Re: How security holes happen From: Chris Angelico Cc: "python-list@python.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 26 NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6 X-Trace: 1394046014 news.xs4all.nl 2961 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:38054 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:67870 On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 5:42 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > On Wed, 05 Mar 2014 16:54:59 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: > >> I don't think Lisp was really originally designed. > > The history of Lisp is described here in detail: > > http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/history/lisp/lisp.html > > Like all complex systems, it did not appear fully-formed in a flash of > inspiration. It was both designed and evolved through experimentation. > That process of *trying things* and keeping those that work is usually > called "design". There's a difference between iterative design of that nature and initial design. An initial clean design is a good basis for further iterative design; a messy initial design means backward compatibility shackles you. "Originally designed" is different from "constantly worked on". But Lisp has enough variants that the backward compat issue isn't as major. There's no specific need for Scheme to maintain every mistake of Common Lisp, or Clojure to support everything that elisp does. ChrisA