Path: csiph.com!usenet.pasdenom.info!weretis.net!feeder4.news.weretis.net!rt.uk.eu.org!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed1a.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!newsgate.cistron.nl!newsgate.news.xs4all.nl!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.001 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 1.00; '*S*': 0.00; 'tutorial': 0.03; 'talks': 0.03; 'parameters': 0.04; 'argument': 0.05; 'assignment': 0.07; 'variables': 0.07; 'arguments': 0.09; 'received:80.91': 0.09; 'received:80.91.229': 0.09; 'received:gmane.org': 0.09; 'received:list': 0.09; 'thus,': 0.09; 'python': 0.11; 'changes': 0.15; 'finney': 0.16; 'ideally,': 0.16; 'object).': 0.16; 'quoted': 0.16; 'received:80.91.229.3': 0.16; 'received:plane.gmane.org': 0.16; 'subject:???': 0.16; 'subject:avoiding': 0.16; 'subject:variable': 0.16; 'wrote:': 0.18; '(where': 0.19; 'passing': 0.19; "python's": 0.19; 'value.': 0.19; 'separate': 0.22; 'header:User-Agent:1': 0.23; "i've": 0.25; 'chapter': 0.26; 'right.': 0.26; 'header:X-Complaints-To:1': 0.27; 'function': 0.29; 'writes:': 0.31; 'yes.': 0.31; 'actual': 0.34; 'table': 0.34; 'like,': 0.36; 'received:com.au': 0.36; 'should': 0.36; 'ben': 0.38; 'to:addr:python-list': 0.38; 'to:addr:python.org': 0.39; 'received:org': 0.40; 'called': 0.40; 'how': 0.40; 'skip:u 10': 0.60; 'above,': 0.60; 'hope': 0.61; 'introduced': 0.61; 'matter': 0.61; 'name': 0.63; 'term': 0.63; 'more': 0.64; 'skip:\xe2 10': 0.65; 'life': 0.66; 'here': 0.66; 'sound': 0.68; '8bit%:21': 0.69; '8bit%:43': 0.74; '4.6': 0.84; 'clearer': 0.84; 'received:125': 0.84 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: python-list@python.org From: Ben Finney Subject: Re: References, and avoiding use of ???variable??? Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2014 10:33:27 +1100 References: <27ac2248-0ca3-4ba6-9d25-eaad324bc5e9@googlegroups.com> <5f4f5a5f-327a-4616-8235-17ee9e74c488@googlegroups.com> <85ha7knedo.fsf_-_@benfinney.id.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: vmx15867.hosting24.com.au X-Public-Key-ID: 0xBD41714B X-Public-Key-Fingerprint: 9CFE 12B0 791A 4267 887F 520C B7AC 2E51 BD41 714B X-Public-Key-URL: http://www.benfinney.id.au/contact/bfinney-gpg.asc X-Post-From: Ben Finney User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/23.4 (gnu/linux) Cancel-Lock: sha1:Upl/K2LWJMVT2cjN4xLt0h7U89c= X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 45 NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6 X-Trace: 1393630424 news.xs4all.nl 2907 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:38849 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:67255 Neil Cerutti writes: > On 2014-02-28, Ben Finney wrote: > > Right. I would like, ideally, for the Python documentation to > > avoid mentioning that term entirely; and I would hope for that > > to promote a better understanding of Python's data model. > > I like the characteristic of Python that assignment and argument > passing work the same way. Yes. They both work by binding a name to a value. > The tutorial makes things sound more high-falutin' than that > [Tutorial 4.6 Defining Functions]: > > The actual parameters (arguments) to a function call are > introduced in the local symbol table of the called function > when it is called; thus, arguments are passed using call by > value (where the value is always an object reference, not the > value of the object). [...] > > How about: > > The actual parameters (arguments) to a function call are passed > via assignment to the variables in the local symbol table of > the called function. > > Am I oversimplifying? As you can see by what you quoted from me above, I think the use of “variable” here is unnecessarily confusing. That whole chapter of the tutorial talks about “variable” and “variable assignment”, when IMO it should avoid those terms and use the clearer terminology of “reference”, “name”, and “binding a name to a value”. (Why don't I submit these documentation changes myself? That's a matter for a separate thread.) -- \ “All my life I've had one dream: to achieve my many goals.” | `\ —Homer, _The Simpsons_ | _o__) | Ben Finney