Path: csiph.com!v102.xanadu-bbs.net!xanadu-bbs.net!goblin1!goblin2!goblin.stu.neva.ru!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed3.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.082 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 0.84; '*S*': 0.00; 'say,': 0.05; 'subject:Python': 0.06; 'lines,': 0.07; 'python3': 0.07; 'python': 0.11; 'background.': 0.14; 'massively': 0.16; 'readable': 0.16; 'repl': 0.16; 'simplicity.': 0.16; 'wastes': 0.16; 'write,': 0.16; 'app': 0.19; 'possible,': 0.19; 'written': 0.21; 'programming': 0.22; 'import': 0.22; 'header:User-Agent:1': 0.23; 'setup,': 0.24; '(for': 0.26; 'scale': 0.29; 'code': 0.31; 'lines': 0.31; 'concise': 0.31; 'libraries': 0.31; 'with,': 0.31; 'run': 0.32; 'projects.': 0.33; 'skip:# 10': 0.33; 'basic': 0.35; 'but': 0.35; 'really': 0.36; 'described': 0.36; 'done': 0.36; 'should': 0.36; 'too': 0.37; 'skip:o 20': 0.38; 'window': 0.38; 'needed': 0.38; 'to:addr:python-list': 0.38; 'to:addr:python.org': 0.39; 'even': 0.60; 'commands': 0.60; 'skip:a 30': 0.61; 'simple': 0.61; 'skip:n 10': 0.64; 'our': 0.64; 'more': 0.64; 'within': 0.65; 'received:46': 0.66; 'beautiful': 0.68; 'received:212.227.17': 0.68; 'skip:w 40': 0.68; 'characters,': 0.84; 'induces': 0.84; 'received:212.227.17.10': 0.84; 'subject:Top': 0.84; 'tolerate': 0.84; 'toy': 0.84; 'picture': 0.97 Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2014 07:05:11 +0000 From: John Allsup User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.6; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: python-list@python.org Subject: Top down Python Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V02:K0:iS2wbj6IQTXBVcWp+g6j8xnJQgd0zXbulxewi8WaoLh dUXoOrh8tGPeFNVASUCBJr+PdQpwcRu/kELBzw4PcBHZFqtvh/ XkFyEAkJ78qKriwDLQxufDz7oSImQzx7KxNrEYsrJPzV6C3LaF zCySu7OyfvyvRMbava9svW4ylowjRGlF/TKm5A2mVR6c4xO3QZ Z7ALZZeGBZWL1+V4ECCP8J+QuDlXs6Pi2S5QEMkQKcTrstRG+r orVE/1idJeUw/4TzrBLEE+uP5Tv0fz2pLRqmtU7WMnbmsrfHv1 n1YcOqvGBAcKiu5AJQQJh8WoJBesr1hIrdssyPPSq1RzHa0Bdc kDb+o6yZsyBbsKaVP2V2MTRdNPBUDWFiAMZyJU84k X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 34 NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6 X-Trace: 1392188714 news.xs4all.nl 2881 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:48351 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:66001 What is needed for proper learning is near-absolute simplicity. Even one toy too many to play with is an intolerable distraction, but one too few massively hampers learning and induces boredom. I want to be able to say: 1. Put a nice picture on the background. 2. Put a terminal window with, say, 64x20 lines, dead centre. 3. Run a simple REPL program written in Python or Ruby within it. I do not really want to write any more lines of code than I need to. Why do we not have langauges and libraries that can do the above with only five lines of code (line 0 == setup, line 4 == cleanup). Programming should be that efficient if we learn to make things beautiful and not tolerate wastes of lines and characters, on a global scale as well as locally to our projects. Consider ==== #!/usr/bin/env python3 from myappfw import app from myapp1 import repl app.background = "Moutains1" t = app.terminal.open(title="Typing commands One Oh One",position="centre", width="80%",height="72%",rows="20",columns="64") exit(t.run(repl)) ==== What Python would I need to write, as concise but readable as practically possible, so that the above program works as desired (for any repl that obeys the basic input-process-output behaviour of a repl)? This is top-down design done right IMO (as described in Thinking Forth, by the way).