Path: csiph.com!usenet.pasdenom.info!news.albasani.net!newsfeed.freenet.ag!news2.euro.net!newsgate.cistron.nl!newsgate.news.xs4all.nl!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.000 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 1.00; '*S*': 0.00; 'argument': 0.05; 'model,': 0.05; 'c++,': 0.07; 'practice,': 0.07; 'advance': 0.07; 'inherited': 0.09; 'oop': 0.09; 'pointers': 0.09; 'url:releases': 0.09; 'cc:addr:python-list': 0.11; 'python': 0.11; 'url:download': 0.12; 'itself.': 0.14; 'language.': 0.14; '(note': 0.16; '2001,': 0.16; 'cc:name:python list': 0.16; 'containers': 0.16; 'distinct': 0.16; 'ecosystem': 0.16; 'hardware.': 0.16; 'ideal.': 0.16; 'janssen': 0.16; 'lisp,': 0.16; 're-usable': 0.16; 'subject: \n ': 0.16; 'subject:OOP': 0.16; 'subject:object': 0.16; 'subject:possible': 0.16; 'subject:programming': 0.16; 'subject:type': 0.16; 'types,': 0.16; 'underlying': 0.16; 'user- defined': 0.16; 'all.': 0.16; 'url:)': 0.16; 'language': 0.16; 'bit': 0.19; '2001': 0.19; "python's": 0.19; 'unlike': 0.19; 'machine': 0.22; 'programming': 0.22; 'community.': 0.22; 'cc:addr:python.org': 0.22; "haven't": 0.24; 'question': 0.24; 'cc:2**0': 0.24; 'possibly': 0.26; 'subject:/': 0.26; 'correct': 0.29; 'ideal': 0.29; 'said,': 0.30; 'message-id:@mail.gmail.com': 0.30; "i'm": 0.30; 'went': 0.31; 'code': 0.31; 'towards': 0.31; 'alan': 0.31; 'container': 0.31; 'contrast,': 0.31; 'formed': 0.31; 'mini': 0.31; 'purely': 0.31; 'class': 0.32; 'languages': 0.32; 'run': 0.32; 'url:python': 0.33; 'used,': 0.33; 'actual': 0.34; 'noticed': 0.34; 'skip:d 20': 0.34; 'received:74.125.82': 0.34; 'could': 0.34; 'classes': 0.35; 'common': 0.35; 'something': 0.35; 'but': 0.35; 'received:google.com': 0.35; 'there': 0.35; 'c++': 0.36; 'interaction': 0.36; 'object,': 0.36; 'possible': 0.36; 'url:org': 0.36; 'effort': 0.37; 'example,': 0.37; 'list': 0.37; 'being': 0.38; 'architecture': 0.38; 'thank': 0.38; 'received:74.125': 0.39; '(from': 0.39; 'ground': 0.60; 'middle': 0.60; 'then,': 0.60; 'hardware': 0.61; 'new': 0.61; 'making': 0.63; 'personal': 0.63; 'such': 0.63; 'design,': 0.64; 'subject:The': 0.64; 'promise': 0.68; 'hoping': 0.75; 'power': 0.76; 'introduce': 0.78; '(ref:': 0.84; 'hardly': 0.84; 'literature': 0.84; 'parser,': 0.84; 'tended': 0.84; 'thrust': 0.84; 'washington': 0.93 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc :content-type; bh=/fTqqQyvnysukZrGW5xPd9C0Dn1tZrvL8aa+nlNNnb4=; b=ZbQKcKOadAdJboOaWel+b67lKjndCkIAiD/gazuuxaqMjjKbGau5c4clvQAFQeuHO3 8XmwrleBe1OhmhbXOqeXVBLoxScADC83QkYYIJrzhz5KsIcyp5rxY9qknEN1K33IFanb FQTDnXX4Dhq48YoqiX+A917yPacrGDk+7ZYsI7msJExBTtHXsFoRMzV7pgIUm6wcA8O/ kwmflrcJoqNU8/7o4jULBUzSqaMKZDEfnO61i0ST9EHu07VXmJPYVl11Q94NNnJYsAjt JUs82VZcaQdcMQoiKaLJv6ZO/kHDxkVC3a1l1EY4puNgZN8k523CSCKwK00soSN5qVdM uD/Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.77.66 with SMTP id q2mr8967037wiw.13.1365997685570; Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:48:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:48:05 -0700 Subject: The type/object distinction and possible synthesis of OOP and imperative programming languages From: Mark Janssen To: types-list@lists.seas.upenn.edu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Cc: Python List X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 53 NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6 X-Trace: 1365997692 news.xs4all.nl 2622 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:40887 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:43601 Hello, I'm new to the list and hoping this might be the right place to introduce something that has provoked a bit of an argument in my programming community. I'm from the Python programming community. Python is an "interpreted" language. Since 2001, Python's has migrated towards a "pure" Object model (ref: http://www.python.org/download/releases/2.2/descrintro/). Prior to then, it had both types and classes and these types were anchored to the underlying C code and the machine/hardware architecture itself. After the 2001 "type/class unification" , it went towards Alan Kay's ideal of "everything is an object". From then, every user-defined class inherited from the abstract Object, rooted in nothing but a pure abstract ideal. The parser, lexer, and such spin these abstrations into something that can be run on the actual hardware. As a contrast, this is very distinct from C++, where everything is concretely rooted in the language's type model which in *itself* is rooted (from it's long history) in the CPU architecture. The STL, for example, has many Container types, but each of them requires using a single concrete type for homogenous containers or uses machine pointers to hold arbitrary items in heterogeneous containers (caveat: I haven't programmed in C++ for a long time, so it's possible this might not be correct anymore). My question is: Is there something in the Computer Science literature that has noticed this distinction/development in programming language design and history? It's very significant to me, because as languages went higher and higher to this pure OOP model, the programmer+data ecosystem tended towards very personal object hierarchies because now the hardware no longer formed a common basis of interaction (note also, OOPs promise of re-usable code never materialized). It's not unlike LISP, where the power of its general language architecture tended towards hyperpersonal mini macro languages -- making it hardly used, in practice, though it was and is so powerful, in theory. That all being said, the thrust of this whole effort is to possibly advance Computer Science and language design, because in-between the purely concrete "object" architecture of the imperative programming languages and the purely abstract object architecture of object-oriented programming languages is a possible middle ground that could unite them all. Thank you for your time. Mark Janssen Tacoma, Washington