Path: csiph.com!eternal-september.org!feeder.eternal-september.org!border1.nntp.ams1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!usenetcore.com!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed7.news.xs4all.nl!nzpost1.xs4all.net!not-for-mail
Return-Path: <python-python-list@m.gmane.org>
X-Original-To: python-list@python.org
Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org
X-Spam-Status: OK 0.002
X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 1.00; '*S*': 0.00; 'model,': 0.05; 'that?': 0.05; 'works.': 0.07; 'url:pycon': 0.08; 'instance.': 0.09; 'objects.': 0.09; 'received:80.91': 0.09; 'received:80.91.229': 0.09; 'received:gmane.org': 0.09; 'received:list': 0.09; 'example:': 0.10; 'python': 0.10; '(note:': 0.16; '[4]:': 0.16; '[5]': 0.16; 'distinct': 0.16; 'i.e.,': 0.16; 'received:80.91.229.3': 0.16; 'received:plane.gmane.org': 0.16; 'subject:reference': 0.16; 'subject:versus': 0.16; 'url:display': 0.16; 'url:general': 0.16; 'url:gmane': 0.16; 'url:py': 0.16; 'url:thread': 0.16; 'wrote:': 0.16; '>>>': 0.20; '2015': 0.20; 'sep': 0.22; 'am,': 0.23; "python's": 0.23; 'references': 0.23; 'examples': 0.24; 'mon,': 0.24; 'header:User-Agent:1': 0.26; 'header:X-Complaints-To:1': 0.26; 'chris': 0.26; '14,': 0.27; '[2]': 0.27; 'object,': 0.27; 'correct': 0.28; "can't": 0.32; '[1]': 0.32; 'problem': 0.33; 'url:python': 0.33; "d'aprano": 0.33; 'steven': 0.33; 'url:%4': 0.33; 'message-id:@gmail.com': 0.34; 'lists': 0.34; 'problem.': 0.35; 'there': 0.36; 'url:org': 0.36; 'subject:" ': 0.36; 'to:addr:python-list': 0.36; 'subject:: ': 0.37; 'two': 0.37; 'being': 0.37; 'received:org': 0.37; 'why': 0.39; 'sure': 0.39; 'to:addr:python.org': 0.40; 'still': 0.40; 'url:3': 0.60; 'behavior': 0.61; 'caused': 0.61; 'show': 0.62; 'per': 0.62; 'is.': 0.63; 'different': 0.63; 'complete': 0.63; 'url:6': 0.66; 'url:js': 0.66; 'received:89': 0.80; 'url:2007': 0.84; 'url:a1': 0.84; 'url:false': 0.84; 'url:focus': 0.84; 'url:mode': 0.84; 'url:origin': 0.84; 'url:%0a': 0.91
X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/
To: python-list@python.org
From: Akira Li <4kir4.1i@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Terminology: "reference" versus "pointer"
Date: Mon, 14 Sep 2015 05:26:11 +0300
References: <c3363$547e74fe$5419aafe$24179@news.ziggo.nl> <85mvws6z45.fsf_-_@benfinney.id.au> <m2k2rws0yr.fsf@fastmail.com> <85io7g6xy4.fsf@benfinney.id.au> <m2egi4rzz5.fsf@fastmail.com> <85egi46wng.fsf@benfinney.id.au> <m2zj0sqjl8.fsf@fastmail.com> <mailman.419.1442039210.8327.python-list@python.org> <d55daf4b-b7c2-41fb-8010-76d6d65eb6b8@googlegroups.com> <mailman.425.1442068881.8327.python-list@python.org> <1a1a1f6a-27ce-4c1b-807a-43eabaa04abb@googlegroups.com> <mailman.435.1442080562.8327.python-list@python.org> <04ca9d7c-d02b-4329-bd94-4d18d86b3edf@googlegroups.com> <87egi375wb.fsf@gmail.com> <m21te3qqeg.fsf@fastmail.com> <87wpvu5h7f.fsf@gmail.com> <m2egi2p2dr.fsf@fastmail.com> <mailman.505.1442186367.8327.python-list@python.org> <55f61e8c$0$1660$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <87h9mx6bhk.fsf@gmail.com> <CAPTjJmob7yapy0raKWwUhGCY_+rL25pyj+gwC8d_qvgcbDKY-w@mail.gmail.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain
X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 89.169.229.68
User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.4 (gnu/linux)
Cancel-Lock: sha1:CmEA3qvc4XT5XJMpTLqmcPf4b14=
X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20+
Precedence: list
List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language <python-list.python.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/python-list>, <mailto:python-list-request@python.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/>
List-Post: <mailto:python-list@python.org>
List-Help: <mailto:python-list-request@python.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list>, <mailto:python-list-request@python.org?subject=subscribe>
Newsgroups: comp.lang.python
Message-ID: <mailman.512.1442197672.8327.python-list@python.org>
Lines: 49
NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6
X-Trace: 1442197672 news.xs4all.nl 23802 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:60046
X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl
Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:96545

Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> writes:

> On Mon, Sep 14, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Akira Li <4kir4.1i@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> writes:
>>
>>> On Mon, 14 Sep 2015 09:17 am, Akira Li wrote:
>>>
>>>> I don't see why the model that can't describe range(1) in Python 3
>>>> pretends to be complete.
>>>
>>>
>>> Please explain.
>>>
>>> range(1) returns a range instance. What is hard about that?
>>
>> Look at the last example:
>> http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.general/782626/focus=782704
>
> Still not sure what the problem is. As per Python's object model, the
> lists contain references to range objects. a contains two references
> to the same range object, b contains references to each of two
> distinct range objects. What of it?

For me, there is no problem. "parcel tags" [1], "box and arrows"[2] are
all the same (note: "labelled box"[3] that may contain an object is a
different model).

The talk about being "complete" is caused by the following quote from
Random832 message [4]:

  If the "parcel tags" model can't show it, then the "parcel tag" model
  clearly is not a correct and complete depiction of how Python actually
  works.

The purpose of the examples in [5] is to demonstate that neither models
are "complete" i.e., there is (obviously) behavior of a Python program
that they can't describe.

[1]
http://python.net/~goodger/projects/pycon/2007/idiomatic/handout.html#python-has-names
[2]
http://www.pythontutor.com/visualize.html#code=a0+%3D+a1+%3D+%5B1,+2%5D%0Ab0+%3D+%5B1,+2%5D%0Ab1+%3D+%5B1,+2%5D%0Aa+%3D+%5Ba0,+a1%5D%0Ab+%3D+%5Bb0,+b1%5D%0Adel+a0,+a1,+b0,+b1%0A&mode=display&origin=opt-frontend.js&cumulative=false&heapPrimitives=false&textReferences=false&py=3&rawInputLstJSON=%5B%5D&curInstr=6
[3]
http://python.net/~goodger/projects/pycon/2007/idiomatic/handout.html#other-languages-have-variables
[4]
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.general/782626/focus=782645
[5]
http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.python.general/782626/focus=782704