Path: csiph.com!usenet.pasdenom.info!dedibox.gegeweb.org!gegeweb.eu!nntpfeed.proxad.net!proxad.net!feeder1-2.proxad.net!usenet-fr.net!nerim.net!novso.com!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed1.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.003 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 0.99; '*S*': 0.00; 'subject:Python': 0.06; 'false.': 0.09; 'from:addr:ethan': 0.09; 'from:addr:stoneleaf.us': 0.09; 'from:name:ethan furman': 0.09; 'message-id:@stoneleaf.us': 0.09; 'objects,': 0.09; 'subject:language': 0.09; '~ethan~': 0.09; '"object': 0.16; 'oriented,': 0.16; 'roy': 0.16; 'statement.': 0.16; 'subject: \n ': 0.16; 'subject:programming': 0.16; 'language': 0.16; 'wrote:': 0.18; 'wed,': 0.18; '>>>': 0.22; 'header:User-Agent:1': 0.23; 'oriented': 0.24; 'paul': 0.24; 'subject:/': 0.26; 'header:In-Reply-To:1': 0.27; 'am,': 0.29; 'wonder': 0.29; 'dec': 0.30; "i'm": 0.30; '>>>>': 0.31; "d'aprano": 0.31; 'implied': 0.31; 'steven': 0.31; 'values.': 0.31; 'know.': 0.32; 'languages': 0.32; '"the': 0.34; 'could': 0.34; 'no,': 0.35; 'objects': 0.35; 'programming,': 0.36; 'charset :us-ascii': 0.36; 'being': 0.38; 'to:addr:python-list': 0.38; 'pm,': 0.38; 'does': 0.39; 'to:addr:python.org': 0.39; 'received:173': 0.61; "you're": 0.61; 'more': 0.64; 'smith': 0.68; 'million': 0.74; "'object'": 0.84; '2013': 0.98 Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 07:23:54 -0800 From: Ethan Furman User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:16.0) Gecko/20121010 Thunderbird/16.0.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: python-list@python.org Subject: Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language References: <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net> <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net> <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net> <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <52b15a69$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> In-Reply-To: <52b15a69$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - gator3304.hostgator.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - python.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - stoneleaf.us X-BWhitelist: no X-Source-IP: 173.12.184.233 X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-Source-Sender: ([173.12.184.233]) [173.12.184.233]:43225 X-Source-Auth: ethan+stoneleaf.us X-Email-Count: 1 X-Source-Cap: dG9idWs7dG9idWs7Z2F0b3IzMzA0Lmhvc3RnYXRvci5jb20= X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 27 NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6 X-Trace: 1387381592 news.xs4all.nl 2914 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:40519 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:62311 On 12/18/2013 12:18 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > On Tue, 17 Dec 2013 22:49:43 -0500, Paul Smith wrote: >> On Wed, 2013-12-18 at 01:33 +0000, Steven D'Aprano wrote: >>> On 12/17/2013 04:32 PM, Roy Smith wrote: >>>> >>>> You never have to wonder what the >>>> lifetime of an object is, >>> >>> Since C isn't object oriented, the lifetime of objects in C is, um, any >>> number you like. "The lifetime of objects in >> objects> is ONE MILLION YEARS!!!" is as good as any other vacuously >>> true statement. >> >> The implication that only an "object oriented" language could have a >> concept of object lifetimes is false. > > Only object-oriented languages have *objects*. C does not have objects, > it has values. The word 'object' has many more meanings than the one implied by Object Oriented Programming, as you well know. > And yes, I'm being pedantic. No, you're being an ass. -- ~Ethan~