Path: csiph.com!v102.xanadu-bbs.net!xanadu-bbs.net!goblin1!goblin3!goblin.stu.neva.ru!news.mb-net.net!open-news-network.org!news.stack.nl!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed2.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!newsgate.cistron.nl!newsgate.news.xs4all.nl!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.009 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 0.98; '*S*': 0.00; 'subject:Python': 0.06; 'debug': 0.07; 'lines.': 0.09; 'subject:language': 0.09; 'cc:addr :python-list': 0.11; 'python': 0.11; 'language,': 0.12; '>>': 0.16; 'assembler,': 0.16; 'bugs.': 0.16; 'dependent.': 0.16; 'fits': 0.16; 'iterable': 0.16; 'math,': 0.16; 'subject:programming': 0.16; 'language': 0.16; 'wrote:': 0.18; 'wed,': 0.18; 'code,': 0.22; 'programming': 0.22; 'email addr:gmail.com>': 0.22; 'cc:addr:python.org': 0.22; 'cc:2**0': 0.24; '>': 0.26; 'nearly': 0.26; 'subject:/': 0.26; 'header:In- Reply-To:1': 0.27; 'chris': 0.29; 'am,': 0.29; 'dec': 0.30; 'message-id:@mail.gmail.com': 0.30; 'code': 0.31; 'languages': 0.32; 'stuff': 0.32; 'bugs': 0.33; 'maybe': 0.34; 'basic': 0.35; "can't": 0.35; 'december': 0.35; 'something': 0.35; 'done.': 0.35; 'but': 0.35; 'received:google.com': 0.35; 'done': 0.36; 'doing': 0.36; 'so,': 0.37; 'level': 0.37; 'others.': 0.38; 'pm,': 0.38; 'little': 0.38; 'does': 0.39; 'moving': 0.39; 'skip:u 10': 0.60; "you'll": 0.62; 'high': 0.63; 'more': 0.64; 'needs,': 0.65; 'to:addr:gmail.com': 0.65; 'expressive': 0.84; 'joel': 0.91; 'rusi': 0.91; '2013': 0.98 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=O8tNpc0mqvwjzGlkoOyO2YY++LXwHooRMZ2rYiiekAc=; b=y5N6SaGm/mQYxLBbBQM6YNNfpRnUMiR9BtsqpZOfbCCoo8Mp6Yc3JygHzzL29TCp8+ YdUf/hwFUExkD2rOBclQ4FMNEdPdL8gMMv2DQyggdQK+hZuRvqYC8YvPcuubN29iiB82 QGoLfumzf/fwPzVIGT/1qejlMU+E+u2+kByRA+bRjxinQmXz30eACcXyLmFsBJm4xJ3l VkCt1t9MWCcL2kWiNZYjTm4y0aalCwvW7PSXQd/OlNaPaLYsq7O0rOwWapj0OkGegNOl RoMjniTK2l1QjDzScMy9TDBXkkxy+aKvHVYh+DpMIFNeXu6L0mZfRQb6EUJFkUxECvvZ 5Zzw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.58.117.7 with SMTP id ka7mr1897235veb.44.1387305563155; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 10:39:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net> <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net> <52afb7e7$0$29976$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <2733a35e-a9c9-44c2-a29c-1d8c252c2159@googlegroups.com> Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 13:39:23 -0500 Subject: Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language From: Joel Goldstick To: Chris Angelico Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b86f130499dff04edbf3f35 Cc: "python-list@python.org" X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 72 NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6 X-Trace: 1387305920 news.xs4all.nl 2925 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:35389 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:62229 --047d7b86f130499dff04edbf3f35 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Chris Angelico wrote: > On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 5:03 AM, rusi wrote: > > On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 8:21:39 PM UTC+5:30, Neil Cerutti wrote: > >> I can't think of a reference, but I to recall that > >> bugs-per-line-of-code is nearly constant; it is not language > >> dependent. So, unscientifically, the more work you can get done > >> in a line of code, then the fewer bugs you'll have per amount of > >> work done. > > > If its true that bugs per line of code is more or less a constant, I think the key is that some languages are more expressive than others. So, in assembler, you are moving data around registers, and doing basic math, etc. It takes a lot of code to get something done. So maybe more bugs. Moving up the ladder to C, which is in a way high level assembly language, you get more done in few lines. Python or other languages maybe do more per line than C (eg the for loop in python does a lot with very little code because of python having iterable stuff built in) So, if you have a language that is expressive and fits your programming needs, you will have less to debug -- not because you don't make as many errors, but the good code just does more for you -- Joel Goldstick http://joelgoldstick.com --047d7b86f130499dff04edbf3f35 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable



On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Chris Angelico &= lt;rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 5:= 03 AM, rusi <rustompmody@gmail.= com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 8:21:39 PM UTC+5:30, Neil Cerutti wrote:=
>> I can't think of a reference, but I to= recall that
>> bugs-per-line-of-code is nearly constant; it is not language
>> dependent. So, unscientifically, the more work you can get done >> in a line of code, then the fewer bugs you'll have per amount = of
>> work done.
>
If its true that bugs per line of code is more o= r less a constant, I think the key is that some languages are more expressi= ve than others.=C2=A0 So, in assembler, you are moving data around register= s, and doing basic math, etc.=C2=A0 It takes a lot of code to get something= done.=C2=A0 So maybe more bugs.=C2=A0 Moving up the ladder to C, which is = in a way high level assembly language, you get more done in few lines.=C2= =A0 Python or other languages maybe do more per line than C=C2=A0 (eg the f= or loop in python does a lot with very little code because of python having= iterable stuff built in)=C2=A0 So, if you have a language that is expressi= ve and fits your programming needs, you will have less to debug -- not beca= use you don't make as many errors, but the good code just does more for= you


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