Path: csiph.com!usenet.pasdenom.info!news.albasani.net!news.stack.nl!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed1.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.009 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 0.98; '*S*': 0.00; 'programmer': 0.03; 'subject:Python': 0.06; 'assignment': 0.07; 'hires': 0.09; 'seconded': 0.09; 'subject:language': 0.09; 'themselves,': 0.09; 'cc:addr:python-list': 0.11; 'project,': 0.12; 'assignments': 0.16; 'benjamin': 0.16; 'cc:name:python list': 0.16; 'effect,': 0.16; 'from:addr:rosuav': 0.16; 'from:name:chris angelico': 0.16; 'subject:programming': 0.16; 'employer': 0.16; 'java,': 0.16; 'student': 0.16; 'fix': 0.17; 'wrote:': 0.18; 'code.': 0.18; 'employer.': 0.19; 'cc:addr:python.org': 0.22; 'cc:2**0': 0.24; 'subject:/': 0.26; 'header:In-Reply-To:1': 0.27; 'hiring': 0.29; "doesn't": 0.30; 'dec': 0.30; 'message-id:@mail.gmail.com': 0.30; 'code': 0.31; 'another': 0.32; 'trouble': 0.34; "i'd": 0.34; 'but': 0.35; 'received:google.com': 0.35; 'c++': 0.36; 'shows': 0.36; 'too': 0.37; 'writes': 0.38; 'pm,': 0.38; 'bad': 0.39; 'university': 0.39; 'easy': 0.60; 'tell': 0.60; 'course': 0.61; 'exchange': 0.63; 'real': 0.63; 'offering': 0.63; 'paper': 0.75; 'cheating': 0.84; 'fraudulent': 0.84; 'gains': 0.84; 'oscar': 0.84; 'undergrad': 0.84; 'to:none': 0.92; 'taught': 0.96; '2013': 0.98 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:cc :content-type; bh=nTxuKCv9kQZc/fa4rz/t3AK2rrV3SAYNkNjrr3/YgiU=; b=fwU27Q5mF/aBvw9Nrd9ObVhunGb9vEp/xcTvH5YGl7ZgkWOJFp8IvBGVeVWnPlVVVl si7tTcXysiYdy25GBbROsrQj05yteLWDENU1k6lyA/SiudThPG33jDF1mlzhuncA1hNE 3uOuQqjcr1z0F6aE/QyvxDPhrgh85srSXBK2UjFUrwlz4LdpkbMFyz9G//KRuZOD1wmZ KKrDILqFAfllGZxZFXmmf53NkeYXFRvrd3f8ol0T2fUyG1fNL4Gh6gEu+6AF3x9xJ8bO pNPDyW6g4C94zma7lP9WtkRwvGEwMrfG9bvtvEwOAuShoWT2i7BMaO4owdRrKUc5BXcD sC+g== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.66.66.234 with SMTP id i10mr27172801pat.127.1387289423044; Tue, 17 Dec 2013 06:10:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net> <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net> Date: Wed, 18 Dec 2013 01:10:22 +1100 Subject: Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language From: Chris Angelico Cc: Python List Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 23 NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6 X-Trace: 1387289433 news.xs4all.nl 2847 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:46058 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:62189 On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 10:12 PM, Oscar Benjamin wrote: > I was also taught C as an undergrad but having already learned Java, C > and C++ before arriving at University I found the C course very easy > so my own experience is not representative. Many of the other students > at that time found the course too hard and just cheated on all the > assignments (I remember one students offering to fix/finish anyone's > assignment in exchange for a bottle of cider!). Student cheats on assignment and gets, in effect, a fraudulent certification. (Piece of paper claims competence, competence doesn't exist.) Graduating student shows certification to employer. Employer hires ex-student, because employer doesn't know good code from bad (hence hiring someone). Ex-student writes a pile of junk, then leaves for a better opportunity. Real programmer is hired, or seconded from another project, to fix a few small issues in ex-student's code. Lunatic asylum gains another patient. It's all too common. I'd like to tell people that they're only cheating themselves, but the trouble is, they're cheating other people a lot more. ChrisA