Path: csiph.com!x330-a1.tempe.blueboxinc.net!usenet.pasdenom.info!gegeweb.org!de-l.enfer-du-nord.net!feeder1.enfer-du-nord.net!feeds.phibee-telecom.net!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed5.news.xs4all.nl!xs4all!newsgate.cistron.nl!newsgate.news.xs4all.nl!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.001 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 1.00; '*S*': 0.00; 'attempting': 0.04; 'guido': 0.04; '(although': 0.05; 'ide': 0.05; 'library,': 0.05; 'subject:Python': 0.05; '"""': 0.07; 'worse': 0.07; 'python': 0.08; 'received:80.91': 0.09; 'received:80.91.229': 0.09; 'received:80.91.229.12': 0.09; 'received:gmane.org': 0.09; 'received:list': 0.09; 'received:lo.gmane.org': 0.09; 'tkinter': 0.09; 'am,': 0.12; 'package.': 0.12; 'library': 0.13; 'afaics,': 0.16; 'batteries': 0.16; 'elephant': 0.16; 'elite': 0.16; "guido's": 0.16; 'pythons': 0.16; 'realised': 0.16; 'stdlib.': 0.16; 'testament': 0.16; 'this:': 0.16; 'wrote:': 0.18; 'stick': 0.18; 'say,': 0.19; "haven't": 0.20; 'badly': 0.21; 'maybe': 0.21; 'assume': 0.22; 'header:In-Reply-To:1': 0.22; 'unlikely': 0.23; "python's": 0.24; 'ignore': 0.26; 'module': 0.26; 'idle': 0.29; 'looks': 0.29; 'fork': 0.30; 'logic': 0.30; 'modules,': 0.30; 'anyone': 0.31; 'source': 0.31; 'does': 0.32; 'himself': 0.32; 'list': 0.32; 'idea': 0.32; 'pretty': 0.32; 'header:User-Agent:1': 0.33; 'header:X-Complaints-To:1': 0.33; 'to:addr:python-list': 0.34; 'community': 0.34; 'it.': 0.34; 'someone': 0.34; 'all.': 0.34; 'something': 0.35; 'modules': 0.35; 'project': 0.35; 'however,': 0.36; 'received:au': 0.36; 'but': 0.37; 'think': 0.37; 'open': 0.38; 'enough': 0.38; 'received:org': 0.38; 'put': 0.38; 'speak': 0.38; "i'd": 0.39; 'either': 0.39; 'johnson': 0.39; "it's": 0.40; 'third': 0.40; 'to:addr:python.org': 0.40; 'packages': 0.40; 'hope': 0.61; 'vision': 0.63; 'our': 0.64; 'believe': 0.65; 'kindly': 0.65; 'high': 0.67; 'whole.': 0.67; 'proud': 0.70; 'skill': 0.72; 'believes': 0.77; 'ideas.': 0.77; 'secret': 0.82; 'badly,': 0.84; 'freely': 0.84; 'headed': 0.84; 'seldom': 0.84; 'losses': 0.91; 'poorly': 0.91; 'dare': 0.93; 'forever.': 0.95; 'received:110': 0.95 X-Injected-Via-Gmane: http://gmane.org/ To: python-list@python.org From: Lie Ryan Subject: Re: Python education survey Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 04:50:28 +1100 References: <06423dd7-4fbb-4e7a-b529-e697ea862b05@f11g2000yql.googlegroups.com> <8bdab804-7fa7-4a2a-b8db-920c7c034752@32g2000yqp.googlegroups.com> <14358576-d102-4b96-aa90-3b63289be45b@h3g2000yqa.googlegroups.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Gmane-NNTP-Posting-Host: 110-175-240-90.static.tpgi.com.au User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:8.0) Gecko/20111124 Thunderbird/8.0 In-Reply-To: <14358576-d102-4b96-aa90-3b63289be45b@h3g2000yqa.googlegroups.com> X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 38 NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6 X-Trace: 1325008254 news.xs4all.nl 6894 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:35865 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: x330-a1.tempe.blueboxinc.net comp.lang.python:18033 On 12/28/2011 03:37 AM, Rick Johnson wrote: > My logic is this: > """ Including an IDE in the stdlib may have been a bad idea (although > i understand and support Guido's original vision for IDLE). But since > we do have it, we need to either MAINTAIN the package or REMOVE it. We > cannot just stick our heads in the sand and ignore the elephant in the > chicken coop. It's bad enough to bloat ANY stdlib with seldom used > modules, but i dare say, it's far worse to bloat a library with seldom > used modules that are poorly maintained! Every module in Python's > stdlib is a testament to the skill and professionalism of this > community as a whole. When a module looks or works badly, we ALL look > and work badly.""" AFAICS, Python has a pretty good reputation even outside Python community. I haven't seen anyone looks at Python badly because of IDLE. > It's no big secret to anyone in this community that both Tkinter and > IDLE are the red headed step children of Pythons stdlib. Very few > people speak kindly of either package. I believe GvR still believes in > the merits of both packages (psst: batteries included!) but he finds > himself at odds with the elite at pydev. Hmm, Maybe he DOES want to > remove them but fears loosing face...FYI: Guido IS is the original > author of both Tkinter and IDLE... it was HIS idea after all. However, > it is high time to re-ignite the original vision and form these > packages into something we can be proud of -- OR -- cut our losses and > remove them forever. I hope you're not attempting to put words into his mouth, what you think of Guido's ideas is not necessarily Guido's ideas. In any case, IDLE is open source -- I don't know exactly what license it's under but I'd assume it's the same as Python -- and anyone in this list and outside this list -- including you -- can freely fork it and work on it to improve it. In case you haven't realised it, it is pretty much impossible for a large open source project to "die"; even if Guido decided to remove IDLE from the standard library, it's not unlikely that someone will fork it and maintain it as a third party application.