Path: csiph.com!usenet.pasdenom.info!news.albasani.net!newsfeed.freenet.ag!news2.euro.net!newsgate.cistron.nl!newsgate.news.xs4all.nl!post.news.xs4all.nl!not-for-mail Return-Path: X-Original-To: python-list@python.org Delivered-To: python-list@mail.python.org X-Spam-Status: OK 0.023 X-Spam-Evidence: '*H*': 0.95; '*S*': 0.00; 'parameters': 0.04; 'class,': 0.07; 'explicit': 0.07; 'consistency': 0.09; 'instance.': 0.09; 'python': 0.11; 'bind': 0.16; 'declaration': 0.16; 'declarations': 0.16; 'definition.': 0.16; 'differs': 0.16; 'from:addr:rosuav': 0.16; 'from:name:chris angelico': 0.16; 'local.': 0.16; 'reedy': 0.16; 'unbound': 0.16; 'sat,': 0.16; 'fix': 0.17; 'wrote:': 0.18; '>>>': 0.22; 'code,': 0.22; 'errors.': 0.24; 'passes': 0.24; 'switched': 0.24; 'possibly': 0.26; 'required.': 0.27; 'header:In-Reply-To:1': 0.27; 'function': 0.29; 'needed.': 0.30; 'message-id:@mail.gmail.com': 0.30; "i'm": 0.30; 'boundary': 0.31; 'implicit': 0.31; 'another': 0.32; 'beginning': 0.33; 'definition': 0.35; 'one,': 0.35; 'but': 0.35; 'received:google.com': 0.35; 'there': 0.35; 'consistent': 0.36; 'subject:?': 0.36; 'should': 0.36; 'two': 0.37; 'mine': 0.38; 'others.': 0.38; 'to:addr:python-list': 0.38; 'pm,': 0.38; 'that,': 0.38; 'does': 0.39; 'to:addr:python.org': 0.39; 'either': 0.39; 'skip:u 10': 0.60; 'catch': 0.60; 'ian': 0.60; 'new': 0.61; 'matter': 0.61; 'strictly': 0.61; 'simply': 0.61; 'first': 0.61; 'name': 0.63; 'different': 0.65; '30,': 0.65; 'kept': 0.65; 'ever.': 0.84; 'hardly': 0.84; 'magical': 0.91; 'yours.': 0.93; '2013': 0.98 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; bh=jzzG+0nUKWExTkAVXRQbbQ95Q1s2zSFOk9kF2q+qKPg=; b=XaeXUUePRnwJko+Ki3jdG4P1hC2pTGmVRr/3kmMTdECGa4UbmHUn44fHAQQm9LFakS WFMqFsv0mahTN8sHuWzVkqAcdyljIuagQMOtL0JvRw+PRtiarmipWWTssVtL5qjlgXth y6vWWC21icTF5MwFuJ6b/kzhKV/aTmHHWudmsg9zGJ8/0HhNtuuVB3AKb/N/i4PL8mpa mh0KE4ql0L/SRVO56cuMxOQsFj3sRzUBlTJ1x3SRAOLVEjSfC7b9uMAodWOOWUsqvfRC 1zbzOAlUgTyiiAE2V9xukevKs96X2kUqyU95NhBY7KJY30TqmYjQRRhkBf9YwbV+3mNV JKdA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.220.182.193 with SMTP id cd1mr7903980vcb.32.1372568882070; Sat, 29 Jun 2013 22:08:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <2a2072e3-4b12-4ada-872c-1240d2379928@googlegroups.com> <51cf2b49$0$29999$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <2f5e7801-a4cd-4d01-a1e7-7f67bca18199@googlegroups.com> <51cf3695$0$29999$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2013 15:08:01 +1000 Subject: Re: Closures in leu of pointers? From: Chris Angelico To: python-list@python.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-BeenThere: python-list@python.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: General discussion list for the Python programming language List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Newsgroups: comp.lang.python Message-ID: Lines: 36 NNTP-Posting-Host: 2001:888:2000:d::a6 X-Trace: 1372568890 news.xs4all.nl 15980 [2001:888:2000:d::a6]:48063 X-Complaints-To: abuse@xs4all.nl Xref: csiph.com comp.lang.python:49473 On Sun, Jun 30, 2013 at 2:32 PM, Terry Reedy wrote: > On 6/29/2013 5:21 PM, Ian Kelly wrote: >> >> On Sat, Jun 29, 2013 at 2:53 PM, Terry Reedy wrote: >>> >>> # The alternative for either program or people is a 1-pass + backtracking >>> process where all understandings are kept provisional until the end of >>> the >>> body and revised as required. 2 passes are simpler. >> >> >> Or simply an explicit declaration of scope at the beginning of the >> function definition. > > > One of the reasons I switched to Python was to not have to do that, or > hardly ever. For valid code, an new declaration is hardly needed. Parameters > are locals. If the first use of another name binds it (and that includes > import, class, and def), it is local. If the first use of does not bind it, > it had better not be local (because if it is, there well be an exception). > If there are branches, each should be consistent with the others. One should > only need two readings to understand and fix unbound local errors. This is strictly a matter of opinion, and one on which mine differs from yours. I think explicit declarations are better than implicit "you've assigned to this name" local creations; the declarations help to catch typos. Also, I like the consistency of C-style declarations - where-ever you declare something, it's valid from there "in", and not "out". Without declarations, there's a magical scope boundary at a function definition that's different from the non-boundary at a loop, for instance. But that's just my opinion. and as Teresa says, I'm only one, and possibly I'm wrong. ChrisA